• Manchester United Message Board

  • Sean N Sean N Jan 11, 2008 12:07 Flag

    Statistics: Do they lie?

    Looking at the statistics who is the greatest?

    Premier & Old First Division Titles.

    18. Liverpool
    16. Manchester United
    13. Arsenal
    09. Everton
    07. Aston Villa
    06. Sunderland
    04. Newcastle
    04. Sheffield Wednesday
    03. Blackburn
    03. Chelsea
    03. Huddersfield
    03. Leeds
    03. Wolves
    02. Burnley
    02. Derby
    02. Manchester City
    02. Portsmouth
    02. Preston North End
    02. Spurs
    01. Ipswich
    01. Nottingham Forrest
    01. Sheffield United
    01. WBA

    Historically Liverpool with Manchester United closing on them fast, but since 1990-1.

    9. Manchester United
    4. Arsenal
    2. Chelsea
    1. Blackburn
    1. Leeds

    and looking at the top three places since 1990-1.

    Manchester United (9/4/3)
    Arsenal (4/5/1)
    Chelsea (2/2/1)
    Blackburn (1/1/0)
    Leeds (1/0/1)
    Liverpool (0/2/5)
    Newcastle (0/2/2)
    Aston Villa (0/1/0)
    Crystal Palace (0/0/1)
    Norwich (0/0/1)
    Nottingham Forrest (0/0/1)
    Sheffield Wednesday (0/0/1)

    Manchester United are clearly top, and have never finished outside of the top three since 1990-1.

    FA Cup wins

    11. Manchester United
    10. Arsenal
    08. Spurs
    07. Aston Villa
    07. Liverpool
    06. Blackburn
    06. Newcastle United
    05. Everton
    05. WBA
    04. Bolton
    04. Chelsea
    04. Manchester City
    04. Sheffield United
    04. Wolves
    03. Sheffield Wednesday
    03. West Ham
    02. Nottingham Forrest
    02. Preston North End
    02. Sunderland
    01. Burnley
    01. Derby
    01. Huddersfield
    01. Ipswich
    01. Leeds
    01. Portsmouth

    Manchester United are historically top, but since 1990-1 including runners up position.

    Manchester United (5/3)
    Arsenal (5/1)
    Chelsea (3/2)
    Liverpool (3/1)
    Everton (1/0)
    Spurs (1/0)

    Manchester United are also top and have been runners up most times, but Arsenal are close behind.

    League Cup Titles

    7. Liverpool
    5. Aston Villa
    4. Chelsea
    4. Nottingham Forrest
    3. Spurs
    2. Arsenal
    2. Manchester City
    2. Manchester United
    2. Wolves
    1. Birmingham
    1. Blackburn
    1. Leeds
    1. Middlesbrough
    1. Sheffield Wednesday
    1. WBA

    Liverpool are historically top, but since 1990-1.

    3. Chelsea
    3. Liverpool
    2. Aston Villa
    2. Manchester United
    1. Arsenal
    1. Blackburn
    1. Middlesbrough
    1. Sheffield Wednesday
    1. Spurs

    Chelsea and Liverpool are top, but like the UEFA cup who realy cares!!

    European Cup/UEFA Champions League Titles

    5. Liverpool
    2. Manchester United
    2. Nottingham Forrest
    1. Aston Villa

    Liverpool are clearly top, but since 1990-1 including runners up position.

    Liverpool (1/1)
    Manchester United (1/0)
    Arsenal (0/1)

    Liverpool are top...just. But that might change this season!

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    • Maybe you should tell us what "who is the greatest" means and then we can answer. "Is" implies the present. If you wish to go back in history then you can choose an arbitrary cut-off to suit your team. As a Chelsea fan I can make an arbitrary cut-off of the last four seasons...

      From a more philosophical point of view (and I'm sorry about the long words, Ryan's dad), it isn't clear to me that today's teams or clubs or supporters should take any kudos from the past. The Liverpool club of today shares only its ground and a minority of supporters with the Liverpool of the 70s and 80s. For today's supporters to revel in past glories is a bit strange. I've supported Chelsea since 1969. I remember with pleasure and pride the cup final win of 1970 and what success we have had since. The league win of 1955 means nothing to me.

      Man U supporters who have supported their club since before, say 1990, should feel pleasure and pride in what Man U has done since. But those who have supported Man U for less than four decades have no business being triumphal about the first European Cup win, it seems to me.

      Am I alone in this?


    • And your point is?

      Why are you dismissing stats you don't like and taking things from 90-91 just to make United look better?

    • No statistics don't lie. The facts are Liverpool is the most successful domestic championship side of all time and UK's most successful European Cup side of all time. Manchester United is the most successful FA Cup side of all time. What is amazing is the domestic championship success story may change sooner rather than later. I remember when the stats showed Liverpool had been champions 18 times to United's 7 times. That is now 18-16. It is also fair to measure recent success. When Blackburn won the EPL in 1995 they were the reigning champions, no matter how many championships the big 4 and others had won before them. In the same way Manchester United are the reigning champions today. Come on United!

    • Well you could use any period of time as a means of measurement but the last four years in not realy the the same for United as it is for Chelsea. 10 years ago Scholes, Giggs and Gary Neville (I think Wes Brown too) were playing and they still are, and we had the same manager, in fact we had the same manager over 20 years ago. How many Chelsea players were playing 10 years ago, and how many managers have Chelsea had in that time. In fact I would bet that Scholes, Giggs and Neville will be still be first XI players next season, will Droghba or even Lampard still be at Chelsea?

      And don't be talking about willies, people might get the wrong idea.

    • So what are you buying today then? Mein Kampf?

    • Well when Ferguson took over at United in 1986, Liverpool were by far the best team in England and possibly Europe. Although United were certainly a top five team in England at the time, they were not consistently as good as Liverpool or much better than any of the other top teams of the time such as Arsenal, Aston Villa, Everton, Leeds, Notts Forrest, Spurs and West Ham.

      Since the 1990-1 Ferguson has turned Manchester United into the consistently strongest team in England. Since that time we have never finished outside of the top three in the League. We have won 9 League titles, 5 FA Cups, 2 League Cups, 7 Charity Shields, the UEFA Cup Winners Cup, the European Super Cup, the Intercontinental Cup, and the UEFA Champions League. We have also been runners up in 3 FA Cup 3 and 3 League Cup finals since 1990-1.

      Few if any team in England in any era can match that domination, and its a domination that is continuing.

      Rafa's Liverpool has beaten Manchester United how many times in how many games he has led Liverpool against us?

    • mister JOKE, sorry I ain't buying this morning.

      Iceman has posted for you on the toffees' board - answer him instead. BTW, thanks for the offer.

    • Well to me 1990-1 is a much more distinct cut off point than 2000 in football terms, as it marked the dawn of the New Premier League and coincided with the end of Liverpool's former domination and the beginning of Manchester United's. Also Ferguson has been in charge of United throughout this period so we are still in the same era so to speak.

      I wouldn't include the League Cup or UEFA title as first rate trophies because no big teams put out their best XI until the final or semi-final stage of the League Cup, while even the FA Cup is going that way, while the UEFA Cup is now second rate compared to the Champions League no matter how its dressed up as, and as for the UEFA Super Cup pleaze!

      League, FA Cups & Champion League Trophies in your time Period...

      5. Arsenal/Manchester United
      3. Chelsea/Liverpool

      Without the FA Cup..

      4. Manchester United
      2. Arsenal/Chelsea
      1. Liverpool

    • The thing is you cant just have a cut off point of your choice.

      if you look at achievements and sucess overall then Liverpool dominate withoout any near challenges.

      as for wining things within a selected period then why not discuss about which club won the most from the begining of the millenium. So that means from January 2000, which club has won the most.

      Now this will include all major tournaments only (no pre season tournaments and freindlies) which also includes FIFA World Club Championship.

      In alphabetical order lets analyse

      League titles - 2
      FA cup - 3
      TOTAL = 5

      League title - 2
      FA cup - 1
      Carling cup - 2
      Total = 5

      European Champs League = 1
      Uefa cup = 1
      Uefa super cup = 2
      Fa cup = 2
      League cup = 2
      Total = 8

      Man Utd
      League title = 4 (even though the the 2000 win was from 1999 sept)
      Fa cup = 1
      League cup = 1
      Total = 6

      2 clubs have 5, 1 club has 6 and another club has 8. Out of the 2 clubs that have the highest one club is strong on the domest leauge front and the other in the Europenna front.

      In the domestic run its about consistency agains clubs such as Crstal pallace, West brom, Derby, Watford Sheff Utd etc etc (no offence to them)and in the europen front is about do or die with leaders from top leagues across europe.

      Now you decide for youself which club is most successful since the millenium as this i belive is fair for everyone.

      As this is a Man utd i will be expecting biased comments from the memebers and slo please note that i have also included Carling cup which many see as Mickey mouse cup Alex Ferguson always sees it as a great/important trophy.

      ""United won the Carling Cup in 2006 and celebrated the capture of such a cheap trinket with an enthusiasm which merely confirmed how far they had demoted their ambitions. ... So much of the last four years seems to have been about contradicting what Ferguson used to say. Once, he gave the impression that the club did not care about the Carling Cup. Then, when United won it in 2006 and it was all they had left, he said they had always considered it an important trophy..."

    • quote, Take out the mickey mouse stuff and your left with.

      League titles - 2
      FA Cup - 3
      TOTAL = 5

      from 1991 when the prem started
      League Titles = 4 included 2 doubles 1998/2002
      FA cups = 5
      Total 9

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