Tottenham Hotspur Message Board
On a serious note Spurs fans your Ledley, he whom has been lauded as "one of the best centre backs of his generation" (and rightfully so) was arguably at fault against Arsenal on Saturday.
The question it raises simply must be...
Can a player who rarely trains truly compete with this generation of athletes playing in the Prem. today?
Should Harry do the decent thing and shout out " TAXI FOR KING" or is Old Lead legs still the "Daddy" in the eyes of his fans?
Hmmm, interesting one.
For my money, we should stick with him, at least for the rest of the season and judge then. He was at fault, yes, but every defender will slip up from time to time, no matter who they are. Terry, Ferdinand, anyone. Hell, Tony Adams was immense, but he made a few errors over his career - its going to happen one way or another.
The key is, as you said, will his form dip as he isn't training? Well, it's only been called into question this season, last season he was on form and wasn't training, which is why I'm keen to see him get his chance with whats left of this campaign. Maybe its catching up with him or, as I thing - but may be wrong - is it just a dip in form. Time will tell but for now, for my money, we stick with him. If anyone has earned a bit of faith its him.
- 1 Reply to Lee
Ledley is and always has been a class act no two ways about it.
Hell if Ledley had stayed fit long enough Arsenal would have bought him.
Thing is, as good as he is,can he truly compete with the TOP forwards of todays game if he is unable to train and therefore reach full fitness?
Would he have reached the ball before Van Persie had he been as fit as Van Persie ( a tea-total by the way) for the first wonderful Arsenal goal for example?
Would he have tackled Fabregas before the ball was slammed into your net for the second (49 seconds after the first)?
Can anybody be expected to truly compete with forwards whose fitness levels are on a par with the finest athletes, without training?
Forget Arsenal if it "smarts", do you expect Ledley to be able to cope with Torres? or Drogba? Adebayor (when he isnt sulking obviously) or Berbatov and Rooney?
Odd occassion maybe, but week in week out? Or in the really big games time after time when anything lacking can be brutally exposed?
Players are trained to the highest levels and its the levels of fitness attained which WIN games for the big clubs time after time.
Commenting after the game with Olympiacos in the CL earlier this season Wenger said something like " I just told the team to keep on doing what they are doing and that hopefully (Olympiacos) will eventually tire" .
We won the game 2-0 first goal came in the 78th minute.
ManU are also famous for their "late goals".
Apologies if this does not interest you Yiddos, i just find it incredible that Ledley manages to "keep on trucking".
Fab my arse king is still better then anything you've got with only one leg!!
If you think your cb's are so great wot has happened against Manure and Citeh already this season??
Lets hear your excusses when drogba roughs them up yet again.Or will it be the same excuses your paedo manager makes about this time next year we'll be champs again??
To me, no.
When Daws was playing regularly, we didn't miss Ledley at all.
If Ledley becomes 100% fit and can play each game - great - but the whole point of us trying to finish top four is more games - CL or Europa. What point in a player who, regardless of whether he's 'injured' or not, can't play in the games that he would be vital to? And when he does play then breaks up an understandings that are forming?
And in all that time that you're alloing him 'to see how he does' means that your still not looking for a true replacement. Maybe 'arry now sees Woodie,Bassong and Daws as ample cover - but, personally Basson is still much of an unknown - Woodie is still injury prone. So we then have what?
Ledley was good - and for his attitude and service does not deserve to be thrown on the scrap heap. But if he can never get back to full 100%, then I would have liked to have seen him join our other 5 million ex Spurs players on the coaching staff.
I see your point John, but I saw it the other way - I didn't think Dawson was ample cover for King and thought we did miss him. Having said that though, I think Dawson has improved since the last time King had a long lay off. So I do understand where you'r coming from.
And if we do get into the top 4 - big if - or Europa and have more games, then I personally think it could help having King sit out and having one of the other two, who aren't playing regularly, step in so they get playing time. All the top sides operate similarly to this and I think its part of the whole strength in depth argument.
However, after giving it a lot of thought - about 10 whole minutes haha- and taking your points on board, maybe its time King was sat on the bench and being the one to filll in when needed? Certainly that would help with his injury, and maybe even get him some light training if he knows he's got more than a week to recover. I'm willing to bet he could come on and do a job when needed and it could get a few more years out of him. I know its different - with age and position - but look at what Man U are getting from Giggs now that he doesn't play all the time. He's putting in some of his best performances. Having a player like King able to step into the fold when needed could only be a good thing.
I just don't think his time as a player is over yet - he has too much to offer. Thats my stance now - but if his form continues to dip then I'd agree, there is nowhere else to go.
With regards to bringing in in Jan, I wouldn't be against seeing a CB come in - although I'd prefer our midfield strengthening first - any thoughts on who you'd like to see?
On the Bassong front, I'd totally agree he's an unknown. Hasn't been world class but not played poorly. I think he needs a bedding in period to fully judge him so I'll wait and see on that one. May be promising to note though that my brother is a Newcaslte fan and watched him all last season where he said he was outstanding. However that was in a team that, on a whole, was performing poorly. Looking good for them and a team with aspirations for fourth is a different ball game. I guess we'll see soon enough.
Its all so hypothetical anyway, as it matters not a jot what I think - and obviously 'arry wants to play Ledley until he wears his legs down to the nubbins.
As for Bassong - no axe to grind there. He seemed to be a panic buy when we lost Daws/Woody, but irrespective of that, the man has to be given a fair crack of the whip.
To me I still think what we lack is what we lacked two seasons back. I'm not a great fan of Palacios - so personally, I'd want a decent defensive midfielder - I would trade Jenas for that and keep Hudd - as I still think Hudd has more vision.
The left side is still a problem - but if 'arry thinks bale can perform there then who knows?
The centre back isn't so much of an issue with Bassong now in - but will be again if Woody/King can't play consistently, as that leaves just Bassong/Daws.
And as for a striker - not sure. Pav just didn't seem to want to be there on Saturday - and what a chance to shine. Keane, because of the way we now play with Crouch there, is bypassed (I'd love to see the stats about how many balls went to Crouch on Sat - and in the air. Pointless nonsense. AND what made it worse, was when they took Keane off, they appeared (IMHO) to start to pass more on the deck. Insane). Daffy, I've never liked anyway - but I must admit he scores. So either stop playing the long ball to Crouch - and use Modric/Krancjar/Hudd to create chances. OR esle buy another striker who is good in the air.
And finally, the keeper. Gomes - no...Cudicini...no.
So in a simple answer:
1) A decent keeper
2) Maybe a CB
3) A defensive midfielder
4) Left 'winger'
5) A striker (if we decide we won't to play hopeful high balls forward)
So I'd only want to replace half the team. Spend another £100m.
I honestly don't think we've moved on from MJ's days. How good does 2 fifths seem now?
You'll get no argument from me with regards to the MJ days, I never wanted him gone. His sacking was pathetic but I guess its ancient history now. I do rate a few players higher than you, but I would agree with getting shot of Jenas and Pav. I've always stuck up for Pav but what you said about Sat was right on the money.
I'd like to think that Keane hasn't really had the chance to hit the highs of years gone by as he's playing out of position to facilitate the team. We brought in Krancjar for cover on the left, why not paly him there? I'd also agree to keep Hudd, though I see him more as a fringe player.
Again, I agree with the Crouch thing - but I don't blame him for it. The other players should know not to just lump it forward. He's decent on the ball and his threat in the air isn't from long balls from the back, its from crosses. I can't understand that when he comes on people see him and instinctively seem to boot it to him, rather than playing like they can.
I'd agree, pleanty to do, but on the upside no one is really taking the league by storm this season and, whilst I was worried about Man City crashing the top four instead of us, it looks like they are having a run of bad form too.
Guess we'll see what Jan brings.
Sorry guys & gals, to be wading in to this thread late on.
I have to disagree about what's been said about Daws. As I've said before on a number of occasions, in the 2 seasons we finished 5th Daws was the other half of our CB partnership with Ledley so he can't have been doing much wrong can he? He's not a bad player, he can't be on those performances, but maybe he's suffered a crisis of confidence since Ledley got injured. To then be injured himself at the back end of last season must have been a real blow to him. I'm amazed that Woody miraculously survived pretty much the whole of last season without injury given his history with previous clubs!
Sad to say (and again I've said it before) Ledley was at fault for failing to stop Sagna and Fabregas for the first 2 goals last weekend. Without being able to train full-time like the rest of the squad his fitness levels have to be called into question - much as we'd like to think so, he's not Superman.
I'm in agreement with those who reckon Ledley shouldn't be starting matches, but used as a sub when needed. Yes, I know he's probably considered too young to be consigned to the scrapheap, but we need to be realistic and look to the future. He could be a great addition to the coaching staff as the youngsters would look up to him as a stalwart of the Club and he'd be an inspiration to many I'm sure. Maybe the fact that his latest contract negotiations have stalled could be an omen for the club as the way forward. Who knows?
Its not all bad at all.
If we play as we can, then irrespective of the Ledley issue, we have quite a squad. As with most teams, the worst players always look far worse when you're playing badly anyway - as the top players have the confidence to drag themselves through. So, with a couple more good wins under their belts we may still get Europe next year. We all saw the confidence change in Gomes - he already looked better this season than when he started - but I guarantee that if we continue leaking 2-3 goals a game, he'll end the season leaking 10. Keane won't score another goal, if the game plan is 'play it up to Crouchie'. They all need the confidence of playing well.
My biggest fear is that we end up playing that one way while Modric is out - Crouch's head will be in for a torrid time. Get it down and start playing football.
So here's to a good 2-0 win over Sunderland. Clean sheet, Keane and Jenas to score.
The point being missed - is that while Ledley may still be the best we have at that position when he is able to play (and I'm starting to wonder whether he is on a par with others - or at least getting to that place), by playing him, we are preventing others from developing to their full potential. Dawson is not getting playing time, and I can remember not that long ago when he was starring in that position - and he always gives it everything he's got. Woody isn't too shabby - yes he does seem to go through runs of injury, but he can train, and he can play more than one game a week. And I think Bassong has potential.
The issue is that while Ledley is sitting in that position, he is preventing others from developing - and preventing others from developing a relationship - which all good clubs have i.e. a strong center back relationship. So I would argue that he is holding us back.
So I'd rather see Ledley on the bench - where he can come on as either a center back or a holding midfielder.
As the saying goes - when the horse is dead - get off!
i think its mad to even suggest getting rid of king.
hes our best CB when fit. & if he plays the amount of games hes playing he will easily play more then 25 games this season.
if we want to be succesful we will be playing at least 50games a yr so theres plenty of space for 4 CBs especially when u consider dawson & woodgate are also injury prone.
i could even include bassong as injury prone if u look at his injuries already this season.
if u want to get rid of king then i think u hugely overrate our team & squad.
hes been great all season up until saturday & lets be honest, the whole team were poor.
id love the reason for our poor form this season to be because of king. but if we are honest, we have far bigger problems.
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