Tottenham Hotspur Message Board
I give in. You are all over the place. You are the Queen of contradictions and the chance of you EVER taking in anybody else's point of view is miniscule (that means small) so go ahead and knock yourself out SB. Must be nice living in your sort of World.
I have to say that until UEFA fiddled with the format I was happy for the Champions to go into the European Cup and 2nd, 3rd, 4th and the Cup Winners to go into the UEFA Cup.
That said, I'm glad we've got our chance to perform at the top table in Europe and hope we continue to acquit ourselves well and not throw away 2-goal leads.
SB I'm with you on the 3rd placed team dropping down to the UEFA Cup. We got knocked out at least once a few seasons ago by a drop-out team (Sevilla I believe?) who then went on to win it in that 1-sided final v Middlesborough. I've said before that it's totally unfair that sides who qualify by right for the UEFA Cup should be knocked out by a side which isn't good enough for the CL. And, again, I'll say that if it happens to Spurs I'd still think the same. We have to be good enough to get 2nd or even 1st in our group to move to the knock-out stages and dropping down to the UEFA would be like rubbing salt into the wound of failure.
It's not that it's a waste of time, but it isn't a league. So the 'winner' isn't the 'Champion' of europe. IF (see how I did that with a BIG IF?), all the qualifying teams played in a single league and they all played each other - then I would agree that the team that won that league was the most consistent (and therefore 'best'). But that isn't the case.
It's akin to saying whoever wins the FA cup is the best team in the FA - no. It's a cup competition, so it all depends on luck.
That's why to me, winning the League is a far more prestigious and indicative achievement than winning the CL. To win the league year upon year, means that you are consistently bettering 19 other teams.
It is a rigged competition, that is not quite a league and not a cup. And if the end result is a team that wins, but isn't necessarily the best, then what is the point if it's not just money?
And just to bleat on - the biggest p*** off from my point of view, is that it directly affects the EPL - as the teams that qualify for it and manage to stay in it, get millions more than any other club in the EPL. AND what is even worse, is that once you're deemed a 'big club' in the CL, you get seeded to ensure you stay in the competition - which ensures you get even more money. So it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy - hence the big stick analogy.
I know you see money as being what it's all about (that sounds wrong) - what I mean is that you see it's 'evil' but accept it. I just find that bit hard. I'd like to see FIFA explore avenues like creating league 'formula' - the car racing people introduced it, to ensure that racing was at least conducted by comparative cars.
I'll stick that on a separate thread.
So, if I am understanding you right, you would like to see more money going to some of the smaller teams? No problem with that but isn't that what happens in the CL when the likes of Braga are allowed in to play Ar$e for example? Braga get some big gate money and exposure to playing a better side.
I really do not understand your theory on this whole CL thing being a waste of time.
Lets say that there was no seeding and Barca played Inter and Manure in the group stage. So what?? two of the three that are expected to go through goes through. That means that there might be a group of second teir teams playing and two of those go through to the knockout stage - and?? they get beaten in front of a smaller crowd because supporters know what the outcome is going to be and the group stage matches against another average team are also not big sell outs like they would have been if Barca had come to town.
OK so the smaller team would have a chance of winning the whole thing but they have that now much the same as Wolves have a chance of winning the PL.
Is the CL over hyped and all about money? Yes of course but so is the PL and just about every other league or cup competition in the World.
To put it in your words SB - if you don't like it put it on ignore.
john & sledge, finally 2 footie fans on kinda the same wave length as me.
money & greed is bringing football so far down its lost all dignity & we the fans are not only allowing it but we are buying in to it 2.
& the CL symbolises all what is wrong with football.
this hugely over rated league with not actually many champions in it (even the name is a lie).
its padded out so much that it only really gets going in the knockout stages.
u have the top teams like utd who can only win 2 out of 6 group games & still win the group its that poor.
u can predict most of the teams who will go through before a ball is kicked.
the seeding makes it even more in favour of the bigger teams.
the group system is used to squeeze even more money out of fans.
we should go back to the days when it was 2 legged knock out.
it would be more exiting, more competitive & a lot more fairer.
sfer- u completley got the wrong idea about what i meant.
im all in favour of the smaller teams having a chance against the bigger chance. & i agree its great teams like blackpool can dream of doing well in the premiership etc.
i would hate for it to be all about the big teams which is boring & uuncompetitive as u said.
BUT thats my point, it has become more & more like that which is why they need to make it a more level playing field.
im not talking about big wage caps etc.
im talking about very small little things they could introduce that would make a huge difference to smaller teams without really making much of a diff to the bigger teams.
heres some small little ideas to start with,
in all carling & fa cup matches- when a prem team is drawn against a team outside the prem, the team outside the prem gets all the profits. will help the smaller teams & wont make a significant difference to prem teams.
u could try & argue a team outside the prem could be bigger than a team like blkpool in the prem but it doesnt really matter because the team in the prem will generate so much income from just being in the prem for a yr which is far more money than ticket sales profit for a carling cup/fa cup match.
they should be standard minimum contract agreements in place for when a smaller team sells a player to a big team.
for example minimum 20% of transfer fee added for 100apperances, 20% if they become an international etc.
at the moment big teams can rip off the smaller teams & the smaller teams have got no choice but to sell.
just small steps i know. but a little bit at a time to winning our game back.
the new 25men rule is a step in the right direction, a small step but a good 1.
I'm not sure that they're that tinted (unless it's vino tinto) - don't you recall Testimonial games? A player staying at one club - because he actually loved playing for them? What? Unheard of.
Just look at what the 'fear' and money factor is doing to the game. In my day the line up was 2-3-5 (remember that, when you had LB, RB, LM,CH,RM, OL,IL,CF,IR,OR - and could tell players positions by their numbers?) - now it has slowly shrunk back to 4-4-2, 4-5-1. The ethos of the game I love has changed dramatically - even though the rules have stayed relatively static. The ethos is no longer 'come on, lets go and win this', but 'let's not lose this'. This is borne out of the money.
So to me, I want Spurs to play well. I honestly have never cared (tooooo much) if we lost, as long as they played well. So I don't care if we're playing Barca or Macclesfield, in the CL or CC. Give me a good game of football, that both teams are trying to win, and I'm happy. I'm happy when we play well and do well in the league, as well as I am in any game we play - if the CL is the end result fine, if not fine. But I'm not going to wet myself just to watch two alleged CL super teams play out a boring game of dross. That is where it differs, I think the current supporter wants the glamour more - wants the CL for the glitz of saying '...I saw Messi...' (and then omitting to say on the night he was crap) - it's all about the hype and not the substance. The same as the shirt analogy - all those people wearing designer stuff - just so they can say 'hey, look at me'. The CL is the designer logo of football.
I think we agree on most bits - my concern (I think) is that the CL/money and the by-product of that, foreign players - will eventually burst the bubble - and then all those supporters on the terraces, will look through the smoke of the burnt out fireworks and realise they were bored to tears.
SKY will not care at that point, as they will create Super Sunday out of whatever other product they can peddle to the masses. Maybe darts (now there's a sport) or snooker will resurface like the Loch Ness monster....180!
Not sure if I am missing something here John but I agree with everything you have said. I am not arguing against what you believe. Its just whether or not you "accept" that money has spoiled the game we love, to a certain extent, although we do still love it and that is why we watch games between two Sunday sides as well as CL games.
Of course I hate all the hype that Sky and others put on the CL games but I "accept" it because I want to watch Barca and the like. Do I wish it was different? Of course but I am a realist.
Do the snidey g1ts at the top of the CL fix it so the big clubs have the best chance of going through? Yes probably. Do I care enough to not watch it? No.
Within any competition, CL or PL or Blue Sqaure, there will be cr4p games and good games from an entertainment point of view so I am not sure what your point is on that one. Just because the CL is fixed or has spangles on does not change that.
I think you are looking back on the old days with too much tinto glasses John. There was more loyalty of course and better manners and courtesy and of course less money BUT that didn't stop players moving from club to club because thier salary went from £10 per week to £20 did it or because the team that wanted them had a better chance of winning the FA Cup.
The only difference is the number oif times it happens now compared to then and the ridiculous sums of money involved.
As I said John, money IS involved and IS here to stay, at least for the forseeable, so we can put up with it or stop watching the game we love. I know what I am going to do.
So you are not wrong John - but there is nothing you or I can do about it. And this is not just about football - there is a much bigger picture here and its one of general greed and corruption.
No - football wasn't always about money - obviously there have always been professional and amateur leagues - and by their very nature, the clubs who paid their players, had to earn money themselves, so were businesses - but look back Sfer, they weren't run as businesses - they were run by people who loved football for people who loved football - the were called blah FC, blah Albion FC NOT blah PLC (a group of people running a business for the benefit of the shareholders) - FC football CLUB (a group of people with a common interest run for the benefit of those people) it was about the football, not the money. Do you think that is a case of 'rose coloured specs'? I don't - just look at how clubs 'market' kits - change kits twice a year - anything to get more money - who does that benefit? I don't think Spurs change their home and away shirt through my entire youth.
But look back before the 'media' took a hold. Players played for normal money and the competitions didn't have such high financial rewards. Because of that, it wasn't life-or-death when a team went up or down a division - it was joy or despair for the supporters more than a financial catastrophe. The 'fear' wasn't there. That 'fear' of failing has pervaded the whole game, from the top clubs down - because the effect of the money at the top (see another thread about this) has meant that the top clubs buy outside of the English league - to attract 'fancy' names (Van der Vaart or Higginbottom - I' think Van der Vaart has more pull don't you? - even though in Dutch it may mean 'In front of the cart' (ie workhorse ;-)).
Money will always rule John no matter what. That does not mean it makes football or the CL any less worth watching IMO. Would I like to see Brighton play Barca in the final of the CL? Hell yes. Would it be a good game to watch - Hell no.
It doesn't make it any more or any less. That's entirely my point. Just because you stick a bloke with a polo 'bat' on an 'orse on a shirt, does it make that shirt better than one that costs a tenth? The only way to judge is to compare the build quality and the materials used. You can't use price. The 'logo' is the hype - the Emperor's Clothes. CL is the hype of football. Its the same thing. Look through the hype to what the hype is about.
Ditto for football, just because the most expensive players are playing, it doesn't make it a 'better' game. The only way to judge would be to watch and see if you're **entertained** - now that may be a 0-0 draw or a 9-1 win - but the whole point of *watching* football is the entertainment. So following on from that how many of the CL games have you watched that have been utter crap (even though they have the alleged 'best' teams playing) compared to how many gems? You can't use money to say how good a game is. That is the 'lie' that SKY (and other advertisers) would have you believe - the money, the glamour, the glitz - football doesn't become more entertaining just because the players cost more or get paid more or because they let fire works off before the game.
Bloody hell, time for a tea.....
Beautifully put John... T'is the main reason why i've always refused to pay any televised sports subscription fees.
To me it's not a beautiful competition anymore! It's more a game of Cluedo... the same players everytime, just they rotate the culprits/winners each season.
UEFA doesn't want any newbies spoiling the party, for they fear it'll look less glamourous if Messi, Rooney and the likes aren't on the winning team.
CL may have the most technically gifted players involved, but the competition itself is sub league and sub cup-knockout standard.
That's what i feel anyway :)
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