• Tottenham Hotspur Message Board

  • Jlock Jlock Nov 21, 2011 11:12 Flag

    3rd with a game in hand?

    A good result tonight - 2-0, 3-1 - could give us 3rd place. And with the Chavs appearing to implode and both Woolwich and Pool looking a shadow of their former selves, could we really get CL football again this season?
    I can't see the Toon bunch staying the course - and I don't think that we've been in top form either. Luckily, we also seem to have suffered our injury quota early on in the season. So if we can keep the momentum going up to and over the Christmas period, we must be in good stead for the run-in.

    (And maybe even more remarkably, if we do win, the gap between us and 8th will be pushed out to 10 points this early in the season - OK, I know it's a bit toooooooo early to start predicting, but a good position to be in eh?)

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    • I know I'm pretty late with this comment, but I don't think you can be concerned about us challenging for the top 3 or 4 because we don't have the strength in depth of the Manchesters. If either of them aren't in the top 2 I'll eat either my hat or one provided by one of your good selves. We should be more concerned by Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal, and I genuinely think each one of those teams would love to have the options we do. You could argue Chelsea have more, but they also have a worrying (for them) number of over- or nearly-30s; I'd definitely rather be in our shoes.

      Alan, before you ask I'm only leaving Newcastle out because they're an unknown entity, what with their wholesale changes since.that nasty Championship business...

    • SB,
      I did read your post. You tried to turn the emphasis away from the strikers.
      Just play this game for me:
      Do you agree that Daffy should have got at least 10 more goals last season?
      Do you agree that Crouch/Pav/Keane between them should also have got 10 more goals?
      Do you agree that if the above had happened, it wouldn't have been 'abnormal' - ie that level of goals is what anyone would have reasonably expected from those strikers? IE the strikers were woeful.

      Then that's it SB. Fine you can say about the defence and if you can show that suddenly last season the defence leaked 15-20 more goals that it normally does, then fine, but I don't think the figures show that at all.

    • beni., yes city pipped us to 4th but that doesnt mean every season we have only 1 team to try & finish above! there were 4 teams better than us last season. u cant just say citys millions meant we finished 5th!
      & i agree theres no desperation to make big changes. i just think its commen sense to sell pav & bassong and then buy another CB & physical foward. it would hardly be a huge overhaul of the team!

      "You're surely not being serious? You can't honestly be saying that there wasn't a major problem with the likes of Daffy/Pav/Crouch not scoring goals can you?"

      john, theres no point us getting in to another debate because u don't read my posts properly & just see what u want to see so u can go on a massive rant.
      for the 100th time scoring goals was a huge problem last season for us.
      i know i messed up my sentance but i put "lack of goals from strikers 1 was of the problems but their were many more last season."
      switch the 1 & was around & it will make more sense.
      i was just saying we had other problems too.
      anyway lets end our debate right there john because u will probably next make something else up.

    • SB,
      You're surely not being serious? You can't honestly be saying that there wasn't a major problem with the likes of Daffy/Pav/Crouch not scoring goals can you?

      I think you may have a problem ceding that point, simply vaunted Daffy as being the saviour and said how many goals he was capable of getting, only for him to fall woefully short.

      If you look at the games below, it's NOT the number of goals scored/conceded that makes a difference in a football game - it is the difference between the two that makes all the difference. Looks like about 16 games where we either lost by 1 or draw. Personally, I never saw Daffy as a 20 goal player. But the strikers should have got an additional 10 goals between them. That number of goals could have had a major impact - we only needed 7 points more to get 4th. So we didn't need to win additional games - a few draws would have done.

      Manchester City 14/08/10 PL 1 H 0 0 0
      Stoke City 21/08/10 PL 2 A 2 1 1
      Wigan Athletic 28/08/10 PL 3 H 0 1 -1
      West Bromwich 11/09/10 PL 4 A 1 1 0
      Wolverhampton W 18/09/10 PL 5 H 3 1 2
      West Ham United 25/09/10 PL 6 A 0 1 -1
      Aston Villa 02/10/10 PL 7 H 2 1 1
      Fulham 16/10/10 PL 8 A 2 1 1
      Everton 23/10/10 PL 9 H 1 1 0
      Manchester United 30/10/10 PL 10 A 0 2 -2
      Bolton Wanderers 06/11/10 PL 11 A 2 4 -2
      Sunderland 09/11/10 PL 12 H 1 1 0
      Blackburn Rovers 13/11/10 PL 13 H 4 2 2
      Arsenal 20/11/10 PL 14 A 3 2 1
      Liverpool 28/11/10 PL 15 (og) H 2 1 1
      Birmingham City 04/12/10 PL 16 A 1 1 0
      Chelsea 12/12/10 PL 17 H 1 1 0
      Aston Villa 26/12/10 PL 18 A 2 1 1
      Newcastle United 28/12/10 PL 19 H 2 0 2
      Fulham 01/01/11 PL 20 H 1 0 1
      Everton 05/01/11 PL 21 A 1 2 -1
      Manchester United 16/01/11 PL 22 H 0 0 0
      Newcastle United 22/01/11 PL 23 A 1 1 0
      Blackburn Rovers 02/02/11 PL 24 A 1 0 1
      Bolton Wanderers 05/02/11 PL 25 H 2 1 1
      Sunderland 12/02/11 PL 26 A 2 1 1
      Blackpool 22/02/11 PL 27 A 1 3 -2
      Wolverhampton W 06/03/11 PL 28 A 3 3 0
      West Ham United 19/03/11 PL 29 H 0 0 0
      Wigan Athletic 02/04/11 PL 30 A 0 0 0
      Stoke City 09/04/11 PL 31 H 3 2 1
      Arsenal 20/04/11 PL 32 H 3 3 0
      West Bromwich Alb 23/04/11 PL 33 H 2 2 0
      Chelsea 30/04/11 PL 34 A 1 2 -1
      Blackpool 07/05/11 PL 35 H 1 1 0
      Manchester City 10/05/11 PL 36 A 0 1 -1
      Liverpool 14/05/11 PL 37 A 2 0 2
      Birmingham City 22/05/11 PL 38 H 2 1 1

    • spursbabe if city hadnt spent like the cash splashing mad men they are then there is no way they would of beat us to 4th. so thats what i meant by citys millions piping us to 4th. man utd, chelsea and arse were always above us last season and 4th was the target .

      i think its important to look at the changes we have made. yes weve all cried out for a centre back, midfield and a striker. we all said wilson wasnt good enough and keane either and they went , we brought in parker and ade and havent lost in 9 games. we kept modders and got king fit.

      so looking at all this whats the hurry and desperation about it massive changes. if you look at the first eleven then it matches any in the league. the squad members again match any in the league apart from city and utd. and if thats the case then im well happy.

      yes there is stil room to improve but i think thats only cos of our high standereds. weve won 8 of the last 9 after a couple of bad results at a bad time .what more can the squad do??? players like pav,bassong and gomes have had a chance and need to go. but does this effect out chances in the league cos we have them ? i dont think so. bassong can do a job , hes not to steady but with king or gallas he plays well. pav has days of the sublime and months of sh1t, but isnt the worst in the world and then gomes is world class on his day.

      so the question is who are the players you would bring in to play as under study to players like bale and modric??

      we have krancjar , daws,piennar, hudds, sandro,rose,gallas, carlo,defoe and dos santos . aswell as some really good young prospects , so who is better back up that will be happy to play back up??

    • yes we will have to agree to disagree.
      we will be going around the same argument again & again.
      lack of goals from strikers 1 was of the problems but their were many more last season.
      also there were so many matches were we created nothing & then blamed the strikers for not scoring.
      i listed a huge list of games where we would have had to score 2,3,4 & even 5 to win. so defensively we were not good enough either.

      "ok we misses out on top 4 last season , but that was cos of man citys millions not cos of a poor squad. "

      beni, did city finish 1st,2nd,3rd & 4th lol. there were 3 other teams who were too good for us last season. it all can't be blamed on citys millions.

      "it wqill be interseting to see what happens in january, if we dont improve like we havent in thew past or shift some of the dead wood then ok we can moan"

      i completley disagree with u their beni. surely it would have made more sense in the summer to get a CB & another physical striker in? why leave it till half way through the season & restrict yourself to 1 mth?

    • True, we are winning with the injuries and lack of goals coming from the strikers.
      Even after a season, I still can't see where the problem is up front with the 'official' strikers. I never did and still don't believe that any of Crouch, Pav, Keane, Daffy are dummies. They don't just ALL go off the boil (I think Crouch will bag a few for Stoke) at the same time. So that tends to mean to me that it's how we're playing that's the issue. Again, Modric, although a class act, hasn't been a provider - so that really leaves Lennon, Bale and VdV as the main providers. As I'm in repeat mode, I'll just say again, that I think part of the issue with both Bale and VdV is that both, given the opportunity, will go for goal themselves rather than necessarily providing that final ball. That was fine in the early part of last season, where both had a good streak, but it left us a bit exposed when they both either waned or got sussed in the latter part of the season. And maybe as an aside, Bale is just too fast to allow the strikers to get in the box to deal effectively with any balls that he does put in? As for Lennon, I know people here seem to like him, but apart from 1 season, he hasn't been one of my favourites - as his final ball has been poor and he seems to run scared of taking on that last defender. Having said that,IMO, he seems to have picked up his game this season - so maybe he'll start providing a few. He has the promise, if only he'd deliver.

    • I do see your point John and of course the lack of goals, last year and this is worrying. I have said before, I think this is partly down to playing VDV as a "striker" but the problem with that is he goes and scores which makes me look silly.

      BUT, the way I see it is just because he scores one goal that does not mean he is the best selection for the team. What I mean by that is because he floats around the park, often found in the back 4, he is not where he should be to score more than one. If Defoe, for example, was on the park in his place there is every chance he would get two goals in place of VDV's one. He is a proven goal scorer IMO and he stays where he should be ie. supporting the other striker who is now Adebyor.

      Our lack of goals is worrying and as said already, if we lose Adebyor to injury I would then start to really worry. We are weak in this area as everybody knows and what I don't understand is why Arry and Levy have not done more to put it right.

      But we are winning and playing well so lets be grateful for that.

    • Sfer,
      I just hope that the other end of the pitch works ok this season.
      Lack of goals from our 'regular strikers' hampered us last season, and so far it seems to be the same. The problem was compounded last season by VdV being quite prolific when he first joined, but then petering off. Ditto really for Bale - the 1st half was a revelation, but then he really didn't score in the last half of the season (when the defences had analysed how he played? And his trick of running between two defenders).
      IMO we need a couple of strikers who will hit 15-20 goals each - then with VdV, Bale, Lennon, Modric etc putting in their share.
      City have already hit 65 goals, Utd 40 - so when they dominate games they are getting goals. We sit with 34 having dominated periods of games and where we could have got 3 or 4 goals, ended up with 0 or 1.

      That still seems to be the issue to me, not the quality of the 'injured' players in the squad I mentioned.

      The fact that Daffy/Pav can't get in the team speaks volumes to me - as you can hardly say that Ade has been prolific since he joined can you? OK, IMHO he's played well without scoring that many, but if Daffy/Pav can't get in when he's not in scoring mode what chance when (if)he hits a bit of form? And what does that then say for what 'arry sees in training?

      And (IMO) getting a half dozen goals in a couple of games for a striker, although impressive, isn't what it's really about. I think that is what pee'd Fergie off with Berba. Berba's goals tended to come in blocks, and not a consistent stream across games. I only throw that in so when Daffy comes into the team and hits 5 against Wigan everyone says '...told you so, he's a great striker....'. Noooooooooooo. Get 5 goals across 5 games that we win 1-0 - helps the 'team' far more.

    • But see SB, that's where I disagree. Those players were good enough for 4th last season. Daffy, Crouch, Pav and Keane (!) (and VdV towards the end of the season) weren't - the lack of goals stymied us.
      And if you think that players stay static, then that's up to you. But in my mind players change from game to game and from season to season. They play well, they play not so well. Some are consistent, some aren't.
      The point then being made is that those players quoted were good enough for what they did last season (and in most cases the season before) and played consistently well enough for 5th even though the strikers didn't perform - so that's not bad for a squad is it?

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