Tottenham Hotspur Message Board
What do you think?
I'm starting to see reports that 'Arry is preparing to walk with a payout if he doesn't get a 2 yr extension.
Do you think the negotiations have stalled because of the death of Daniel Levy's mother?
And finally, would you be sorry to see him go - or would that depend solely on his potential replacement?
Gio as a throw away comment? Fine.
As for the 3 points, I'm not, have never been talking about the 'excitement' of the points. The point I was making, still am and ever will be is - that focussing on Villa and ignoring the 17-19 preceding games after Christmas is IMHO ignoring the main problem.
If you want to talk about excitement - absolutely fine - I was trying to talk about the end of Spurs season and why we dipped out of the top 3. I thought that is (ie total points gained rather than excitement value) why people here were quoting '...1 point wasn't worth anything...'. I didn't realise they were just talking about the excitement factor.
It's not me that appears to be confusing the two. They are quite separate in my mind - excitement - points - points - excitement.
So, yes, you're right, I will stick to my guns and say 3 points is 3 points whenever you get it and to ignore the games after Christmas to focus on one game - and not even one game it seems - maybe one third of one game, seems to me to be a short sighted.
I have been wrong loads of times - I think I apologised to SB only yesterday. I am quite happy to apologise - it has never bothered me, but I won't 'apologise' simply because somebody thinks I should.
Sfer - I quoted the stats to you to show the change in the game at Villa. Did you see the change in the game from the stats? I would have pointed you to a video of the game, but I didn't have one. When I saw the game I noticed the difference after our goal. I was using that to show how that 'may have' affected 'arry's decision to use Daffy. I saw why when I watched it. If you didn't then, fine.
I didn't realise that Slayer supported that. I thought he was just amazed at how the focus was on one game - or 30 minutes of one game, and not the 20 games that made up the second half of our season.
I get it John, I get it. I understand all the points you are trying to make - I just don't agree with all of them.
That said, I don't feel that you get what I am trying to say at all. In fact I don't think you get what SB or Joe are saying either. You take a throw away comment that somebody made about putting Gio on against Villa and spend an extraordinary amount of time explaining how that would not have been your decision. It just gets in the way of what you are trying to say on more important issues or the real argument.
Which 3 points are more important during a season than others is both factual (as I have said before and is quite correct) and emotional. You have at last had to admit that some games excite you more than others - which if every 3 points means the same you would not feel. If every 3 points were indeed equal we wouldn't bother having the end of season hoo haa we have would we???
You can't compare that to scoring a goal in the last minute. The analagy just does not work. Whether you score in the first minute or the last the value is the same and it does not alter the end of season finishing point. A whole game however does.
Look, the tension in any game builds up through the 90 mins. We are all hoping that we score that last minute winner and that is exciting. The same goes for a season, we start the season hoping we start well but actually we don't get as excited about the game against Norwich in December as we do about the last game of the season against Norwich do we??. Assuming of course we are either end of the table and not stuck in the middle with nothing to play for.
Obviously I appreciate you are not going to agree, preferring to stick to your guns and stay with the old tried and tested "3 points are the same no matter when" even though you have now admitted you get more excited over some games than others. Why if all games offer the same possible outcomes?
I don't think I am an unreasonable man. I like to think I listen to others views and that I can put forward my own views in a reasonable and logical way. I admit, I don't admit I am wrong as easily as I should BUT I do when others persuade me that I am wrong. Have you ever been wrong, and admitted it, in your life John? You will of course say yes but I am not so sure.
It seems to me that if you don't like the way an argument is going you change the goalposts, post long rambling statements, quote stats, raise other non related issues, quote Shakespear and generally confuse the original issue so much that nobody wins. More importantly, you don't lose.
SB might not be able to articulate what she means some times but the gist is there. The only person who I have seen support your view about 3 points being 3 points has been Slayer. I have a feeling that if every Spurs supporter in the land said you were wrong your response would be "ah but have you considered this..........."
I'm flattered you took the time and energy to reply to my pointless argument, what does that say about yours?
A season is played over 38 games and in theory no one game is more important or significant than any other, Harry had the luxury of knowing what was required in the Villa game and the consequence of not taking 3 points, that isn't always the case and In this particular game, which so many people deem to be pivotal, he didn't do/try everything possible to win.
Harry has never been renowned as a master tactician, his reputation has been built on getting the best out of the players he manage's, to motivate them to achieve more. During and after his England speculation/flirtation he failed to do that, the very attribute that got him the job seemed to desert at a key point in his career and our season.
'The league table doesn't lie, Spurs are the fourth best team in England and no amount of whingeing /moaning about the Villa game would change that. Time to move on folks!'
What was that you said about pointless arguments?
'There's 38 games in a season and it's nonsense to use a single game as the decider for your whole season. How about the games Spurs deserve to lose and won, why aren't the disgruntled fans using that score cheap point?'
By no means is the Villa game the exhaustive reason for Harry's departure, it is one of the straws that broke the camels back.
So, where will RVP be playing his football next season? I thought he would 'sort it' after the Euro's, his are over and now he's on Hols.
As for seeing the best in 'arry. Blinkey blimey, haven't you seen that my problem with 'arry went far deeper than a substitution in one game or answers he gave re England? Surely you must have read in previous seasons my questioning of why we seem to lack results after Christmas - and again this season? That to me was a far bigger problem - and the main issue. Villa we drew - fine. BUT the whole post Christmas thing that had occurred twice was the problem - as if that hadn't have occurred, then the Villa result wouldn't have mattered.
I also think that 'arry/Levy issue was age of squad related. I posted that as well. If you look back, the concept appeared to be 'young and English' at Spurs 4 years back. Now the squad's age is a problem. The players that 'arry brought in did exceptionally well in most cases. But they weren't 'future'.
Even though I think the post christmas blues wasn't addressed - 'arry still did well enough for me (the results belied some of the performances to me) to be happy with the overall.
People seem to think I'm defending 'arry in all things - no. I'm defending what I saw, heard and read in particular instances. If you saw the Villa game differently and didn't see the change after the goal - not a problem to me.
I know most of this is subjective - but where I can I try to show with some form of backup, what I'm saying is founded.
You then said:
'...'I believe that if 'arry had been offered the England job, it would have been a difficult decision for him.'- Difficult? you clearly didn't read this or hear the MOTD interview......'
I thought it was me who posted the interview here? Maybe not. Yep I saw the interview. Did you? Listen to it again. Taking one line from the whole discussion does not give the whole picture. If you want to listen again - its here:
See what he says about it being difficult. As I said in another post you have to listen to the question and all of 'arry's answers. That's why the media love him. They'll take a one liner and say '....'arry wants blah....' - but that headline ignored the question and what else 'arry said.
'...How was Harry treated by the club, fans and the media during the many dramatic moments of his personal life of the last year? largely with the up-most support and understanding, but he didn't have the decency to reciprocate- That's how much he 'loved' his time with us.....'
How could 'arry have 'reciprocated' in your eyes? And when exactly did 'arry then fall foul? If it was re the England job, well hasn't that ('arry's view on the job) been a known for ages? Levy certainly knew it. I did. Didn't you? Was it because of Villa? His lack of tactical ability?
Yes, we have been here before and probably will go round again or not as the case may be.
I've shown all here the stats. You can ignore them if you want, but please look at them.
* Although we are attacking Villa, we are limited to what we created.
* Daffy is readied to come on
* We score
* 'arry sits down Daffy - presumably to see what now happens
* We create more chances - corners. It looks like the goal has been a catalyst
That is what I saw, what the stats seem to show - and presumably what 'arry saw. Why change when we're already pressing as high as we can? What is Daffy's game? As for Gio - I don;t think, given what I've seen of him this year, that I would have changed the team to bring him on. If we had been winning by a clear margin, yes, but in a game where you're saying we had to win, would I bring on someone who had no track record of scoring for us? Not for me.
''....Arry, his media team and his son, went into overdrive to try and get him the England job.....'
Did they? I will happily change my mind if you can show that's the case. All I saw was a media barrage. The media wanted answers (much as Linker wanted Moyes to answer) and pressed 'arry at every opportunity. 'arry answered. As I said re Moyes - the only answer that would have kept people here happy is if 'arry had said '...No I don't want the England job....'.
Sfer intimated that that is the way to go - to not tell the truth.
I advocate the opposite. Still do. I think honesty is the best policy.
I think Whelan's comments are a breath of fresh air. He was totally open and aware that Wigan is not the biggest job in the world. He knows that Martinez will someday leave for a 'bigger' job. Why then the pretence? 'arry had said the England job was the pinnacle ...blah. We were all aware. Why such a shock then, that he appeared flattered to be considered?
I don't recall mentioning money with regard to 'arry and England. I may have done, but when I was talking about the terms, consider this. What if the FA had said, you can have day to day running, but we want final say on who is picked? (IE to stop fiascoes like JT occurring). Maybe 'arry may have baulked at that? So as in any job, you don't accept until you know all the conditions applied.
As for 'arry's comments re the players and the manger's contract - again I answered that. I think I said at the time that was confusing. I did put forward a scenario - seems Bale has echoed that for me. My comment was that 'normally' the players don;t care. They will just continue to play. Vertonghen seems happy to come to Spurs without 'arry, and Bale 'allegedly' is not happy if AvB comes to the Lane - opposite ends of the 'manager has an effect' spectrum?. So, although in general terms, the players should be professional and just carry on, some players will take exception to a manager (or vice versa) and a change will have an affect. I think that is likely more if a player is already unsettled and in discussions with a manager, who then leaves.
"Defoe/Gio should/could have been brought on earlier, leaving any substitution until the 89min is pretty pointless (almost insulting), my issue with Harry and his tactics/decisions in the Villa game, it was too little to late, despite us being camped in the villa 18yard box, we didn't look like scoring. Something more positive, should have been done earlier!
He did not do everything he could to try and help us win that game and as a result we took only a point, which in-light of the fact that Harry knew 3 would put us into third, was a very poor decision."
Pretty pointless argument, imho Joe.
There's 38 games in a season and it's nonsense to use a single game as the decider for your whole season. How about the games Spurs deserve to lose and won, why aren't the disgruntled fans using that score cheap point?
The league table doesn't lie, Spurs are the fourth best team in England and no amount of whingeing /moaning about the Villa game would change that. Time to move on folks!
interesting- but haven't we been here?
'I believe 'arry was going to bring on Daffy at about the time we scored and then didn't as he waited to see the effect - and saw the game change anyway'
Defoe/Gio should/could have been brought on earlier, leaving any substitution until the 89min is pretty pointless (almost insulting), my issue with Harry and his tactics/decisions in the Villa game, it was too little to late, despite us being camped in the villa 18yard box, we didn't look like scoring. Something more positive, should have been done earlier!
He did not do everything he could to try and help us win that game and as a result we took only a point, which in-light of the fact that Harry knew 3 would put us into third, was a very poor decision.
'I believe 'arry didn't 'court' the England job, any more than Moyes is 'courting' the Tottenham job.
I believe 'arry both wanted the England job, and also really 'loved' his time at Spurs'
'Arry, his media team and his son, went into overdrive to try and get him the England job. At that time Harry knew the role would dictate that he only saw the players once every 6-8 weeks, he knew at that stage he would not have day-to-day contact with the players. So for him to then use that, as a reason to be relieved not to get the job is ridiculous.
I agree with Sfer- If I was an Everton fan, I would be disappointed with Moyes comments. However I think his lack of clarity is more understandable than Harry's. Moyes has no idea of Levy's plans for our club nor the specifics of the job role, with England Harry did, because it has always been the same, the only real unknown was the wage, which if its 'the pinnacle', shouldn't matter, its not like he needs the money.
So how will you explain:
During Harry's flirtation; 'the players don't care who the manager is, the king is dead long live the king'.
Whilst he's trying to get a contract extension; 'It unsettles the players, not knowing if I'll be here'.
Is that a lorry I hear reversing? These comments are mutually exclusive and are symbolic of the duplicitous nature of Mr Redknapp.
JL what's, your understanding/interpretation of this situation, as someone who only ever seems to see the best in 'Arry, how can these two comments made within 6 weeks of each other, how can they be explained, one will always contradict the other, he cannot be right on both counts.
'I believe that if 'arry had been offered the England job, it would have been a difficult decision for him.'- Difficult? you clearly didn't read this or hear the MOTD interview
With regards to the England job Redknapp added: ‘I was never approached. I would have taken it, though.’
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2157012/Harry-Redknapp-close-leaving-Tottenham.html#ixzz1yE8WtmTk
I maintain that whilst Harry did much good during his time with us, he left Levy no choice, Harry went to the media (again) and used them to try and pressurise Levy and the club, whilst Levy was mourning the passing of his mother, Harry was thinking about his pocket and bank balance (again).
How was Harry treated by the club, fans and the media during the many dramatic moments of his personal life of the last year? largely with the up-most support and understanding, but he didn't have the decency to reciprocate- That's how much he 'loved' his time with us.
Thanks for the memories 'Arry, CL memories will always be special, but he played more than a hand in his own demise and ultimately left the club with little choice.
I totally believe what I'm saying.
I believe we went to Villa to win.
I believe that after we scored at Villa the game changed even more in our favour.
I believe 'arry was going to bring on Daffy at about the time we scored and then didn't as he waited to see the effect - and saw the game change anyway.
I believe that 3 points is 3 points no matter when in the season you get them.
I believe 'arry didn't 'court' the England job, any more than Moyes is 'courting' the Tottenham job.
I believe 'arry both wanted the England job, and also really 'loved' his time at Spurs.
I believe that if 'arry had been offered the England job, it would have been a difficult decision for him.
Ok, so I'm deluded in your eyes. And?
PS I don't think I rant either. Ramble, maybe. Rant tends to imply anger and I'm quite sanguine.
"I give up."
u cant help someone see sense when they are that deluded.
i hope for his sanity, that secretly he just likes an excuse to have long rants & debates, & he actually doesnt believe what he is saying.
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