• Tottenham Hotspur Message Board

  • Jlock Jlock Sep 17, 2012 09:18 Flag

    For SB (and Sfer if he wants - or anyone else)

    Maybe I misread or over-react to your posts - but I think SB was having a pop again with her:
    '.....i thought ade was going to play instead of defoe.
    defoe was awesome! u play him regularly & he will get u lots of goals!
    shame harry couldnt see this & persisted with zimmerframe vdv.....'

    So as I mentioned, I'm happy to debate this - hopefully contained here to save 'boring' other forum members.

    Back to SB - I keep repeating SB that Daffy is OK, he's not great. He will score, but his history isn't stunning. Try yourself. Look here http://soccernet.espn.go.com/player/_/id/7975/jermain-defoe?cc=5739 and see what his record is. Then explain what you mean by 'lots of goals'. Give me any season when he's scored (I'll let you count both goals and assists) more than 20 in the league. Give me all the seasons when he's scored more than 15. Then give me when he's scored (including assists) less than 16.
    I'll give you a hand, as stats aren't your thing - the format will be 'season-goals-assists-total - number of shots':

    2002 10 0 10 No Stats
    2003 8 8 16 81
    2004 7 0 7 35
    2005 13 1 14 99
    2006 9 5 14 74
    2007 10 2 12 82
    2008 12 2 14 60
    2009 10 4 14 95
    2010 18 4 22 113
    2011 4 2 6 68
    2012 11 1 12 66

    So from what I can see, he's got more than 15 'goals' (Including assists) twice in his career. And one of those was when he scored 5 in one game.

    So you may have 'faith' in him to score 'lots of goals', but his record doesn't seem to support it. Well, at least it doesn't to me. So maybe 'arry 'didn't see it' because it didn't happen in Daffy's career so far?

    He MAY score more than 16 goals this season - who knows - that's future? I hope he does - or if not him, I hope our team scores 80+ goals. But there's the rub, surely you saw from yesterday, yes Daffy can score, but he's greedy - in my opinion, if he doesn't score, he doesn't lend much else to the team. His role isn't holding up the ball or bringing other players into the game.

    I would guess that out of the 'shots' that Daffy had above, there would have been situations in probably a quarter of the cases, where Daffy elected to shoot, rather than play another player in. That's a guess based on what I see of how he plays. Myopic or what?

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    • In my opinion, Defo needs a whole season being the number 1 striker at Spurs and plays every game when fit. THEN we can see if he is the goal scorer we all hope he is.

      Personally I think he will be, but time and number of games played (Full games not a 5 min cameo at the end of a match) will tell.

      • 2 Replies to Nick
      • agreed nick. all the stats suggest last season that he would have easily reached 20 goals for the season if he started every game.
        u can say its just projected stats john. but even if u were been harsh on defoe, he would still have made 20 goals if he played every game.
        he would have had to have a huge dip in form for a long period of time not to have reached 20 goals.
        its not his fault harry was being blackmailed by vdv!

        the fact u still support harry not bringing on our best goalscorer when we need a goal just shows how far up harrys bum u realy are!

        that is simple logic. are like a politician who trys to confuse the matter to get out of your stupid decision.

        no matter what pathetic excuse u come up with, not bringing on your best goalscorer when we needed a goal against villa was a huge error.

        in fact rarely starting defoe last season was a big error.

        if harry played friedel upfront & it went wrong (as expected!).
        u would go on about how wonderful hindsight is, & then go on about how friedel holds up the ball better than defoe.
        anything to support harry!

        i dont know why im going in to it again because its clear u will change logic & the most likely outcome to suit your pro harry stance.

        i leave u to convince yourself not picking defoe was the right thing from harry even thou the outcome & all logic suggests otherwise.
        keep deluding yourself john, whatever floats your boat.
        some people cant just admit when they were wrong.
        something both john & harry have in commen!

        over & out!

      • Nick,
        I tried to be fair and show Daffy's whole history. So he hasn't show that he can score 'lots of goals' in the past (I presume lots of goals would mean what, 20+ goals+assists?), only achieving it once in his whole career.
        I sincerely hope he does score 'lots' this season (and if he doesn't either someone else does or the team in general does - as we'll need the goals to attempt 4th), but his track record doesn't show it.

        That's not a dig at Daffy per se, as I don't think we've had a prolific striker at the Lane for ages. Even Keane and Berbatov (I think Berba would have gone on to be - but that is obviously a guess - as he to me is a class act) weren't - they played well together and got a fair total between them, but their individual goal tallies weren't that high for us.
        To me, the closest we've come to having a top striker recently was Ade's performance of 17+11 last season (when most would admit that he could have had more if his finishing had been more clinical).

        If you look at the strike rates for our top goal scorers since the EPL (http://www.myfootballfacts.com/TottenhamHotspurPremierLeagueAppearencesGoals1992-2009.html ) there aren't that many achieving that magical 1 in 2 is there?

    • SB,
      If you have a link to the 'arry quote that you keeping referring to, I'd be interested in reading the whole article or watching the whole video.

      • 1 Reply to Jlock
      • http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17885326


        "once u got down to 10men & your 1-0 down 5mins in to the 2nd half. u would take a pt all day, i dont care who u are."

        why would u take a pt all day no matter who u are?
        the match was there to be won. it was against a very poor villa game. we needed the 3pts to keep guranteed CL football in our hands.
        but harry clearly says he would settle for a pt all day long.
        yes, normally with 10men & 1-0 down u would take a pt.
        but this wasnt a normal circumstance. before u said i have taken harrys words out of context, but this time its a direct quote for the actually context, ie- the actual game we are talking about!

        he clearly says he had settle for a pt.

        john theres no point anyway. u will do your politican act so u can cloud it & then come up with some more rubbish to wriggle out of it.

        just like your U-TURN on your football philisophy, despite it being in black and white!

    • From Sfer - Hazzard Thread:
      '......So he would have joined us except we did not get CL football. For anyone that thinks not getting CL football does not make a difference (although how anyone could think that is beyond me) this says it all.....'

      CL is important, but it doesn't stop players from signing for non CL clubs. Citeh were the biggest case in point. Signed loads pre CL - so presumably it was the money? We signed Modric, Bale, Berba, Walker, Vertonghen, Lloris - even Dembele and Sigurdsson.

      '....Whether or not you think Hazzard is a great player is a different matter. The fact is Chelsea paid a fortune for him and he was linked to just about every top class team in the World so there are a lot of "experts" that do think he is that good - and we could have had him if only Arry had not made some bad tactical decisions.....'

      Well if 'arry made some bad tactical decisions (a man who had NO tacky-tickle nous) over what 120+ games and getting 4-5-4 in the EPL and CL quarters after playing some top teams in Europe, then I'd hate to think what you really must think of AVB, given that so far we have played mediocre teams and done pretty poorly. Isn't AVB an alleged tacky-tickle genius?

      '...He is the only one that has come out and said what
      he has but how many others were there? Just goes to show how even one point can make such a huge difference. Will we get the chance of CL football again this year?? IMO unlikely.....'

      Good - glad you see that it's the points, not when you get them. So remember that at the end of the season when the points dropped against WBA, Norwich are taken into account. Even though they're not 'exciting' points, they are still points dropped at this stage of the season.

      '....Last point - we looked awful in the first half against QPR as Rambro has pointed out. When, eventually, AVB changed the team to a 4-4-2 and gave Defoe some support did we look like scoring. Why does he insist on leaving shorthouse Defoe on his own? I like Defoe and always thought he should get a decent run to show he is a natural goalscorer (a very rare talent these days) but he can't do it on his own.
      When, or should I say "will", AVB stop thinking he knows it all and has some secret tactical superior knowledge and play a team that looks balanced?
      IMO he has been lucky so far (we could very easily have lost 3 - 0 aginst QPR at home) and you cant win anything with luck on its own. ....'

      Because that's 'his' tactics - the same as 'arry had his, and Fergie has his and Wenger has his. Surely AVB's tactics (being a tacky-tickle master - didn't you want someone with superior tactical knowledge?) have worked in regards to Daffy? Isn't he scoring goals? SB will now show that on his current form he will 'score lots'. What's wrong with Daffy scoring? 4 goals in 5 = 20+ in a season. Isn't that what we all want?

      I did miss all this for the past few days.....;-)

    • come on guys can't we all just get along?

    • You've got to face the facts, John. All the best strikers in the world are right selfish tw@ts as soon as they catch eye of the net.

      • 1 Reply to Alan H
      • Ah, but Alan, what you state as a fact, is an opinion. I agree an element, a degree, of selfishness has to be there, but if all strikers exhibited the same traits. how do explain 17-11 for Ade?

        Daffy has been compared to VdV in as much as to which player should have been in the team - ok fine - then look at the 'facts' - do a comparison - see here:
        If you add all the '1st division' stuff for VdV you get 116 goals and 50+ assists (ok in 'lesser' leagues). A midfielder. Daffy, the goal machine, has the same goals and a third of the assists. Which player would you prefer? Which lends more to a team? Does 'greed' then work?
        I've already shown that over their Spurs careers in total, that VdV had a better strike rate than Daffy. And he also 'assisted' others.

        See http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/basics/spielervergleich/basics_8198_3875.html

        Ronaldo is a different class, I would have classed him as selfish - all about his 'image' - but his game isn't one dimensional either. 47 assists and 80+ goals in the EPL - not exactly selfish.
        Try the same view of Rooney.
        Try it with Van Persie.
        Try it with Ade....
        Try it with Keane (and he got roundly slated here for not being exactly the best)...
        View Daffy alongside who you like (even Darren Bent compares favourably to him) and look at the assists. I'm not convinced so far that Daffy has been the goal machine that is so glibly spoken about. He MAY become one, but he hasn't been for 11 seasons. Like I've said for ages, we haven't had a proven top class striker at the Lane for ages.

        So typically it seems that there ARE strikers that score and help and those who just score. Which type do you prefer?

        Having said all that, I'd still have a greedy/selfish player in the team at the drop of a hat - if that player was a Greaves or that ilk (a Shearer even). Who, on EXCEPTION, got less than 20+ goals.
        But getting on average, 14 or 15 with Daffy? I'm not so sure it's a good trade off. Especially given Daffy's lack of presence. We play with two of the best 'British' wingers. What do wingers normally do? Provide crosses? Who to? Daffy? How many goals has Daffy ever scored from corners or from headers?

        Oh well, chacun a son gout.

    • ....Thanks Graeme & remmah,

      I am glad someone else see's it the same way I do - I was beginning to think Mr Locke was the only one I would hear from with his usual drivel.

      Vertonghen looked a bit slow to start with but he has certainly got the pace of the PL now.

      Not sure if AVB changed the system because he recognised it was wrong or because he just felt that panic feeling welling up in his stomach - either way, it worked thankfully. .....'

      Well, when talking about what 'arry may have done, it does become a bit pointless for discussion doesn't it? I could equally have said that 'arry, being tactically inept, and lacking a LB would have looked at the squad, and seeing Vertonghen can play LB said to himself '....ah, I'm lacking a LB and lo, what light shines from yonder window? Is that the light of Vertonghen's skill at LB? Surely fate has smiled on me....' and maybe just maybe, he may have started with Vertonghen at LB from the off (given that still left him with two CB's fit in Caulker and Daws). But that would have been tactically inept. Its far better making what may be perceived as a mistake and then correcting it to show how clever you are.

      Hypothetical though eh? Any other options of what 'arry 'may' have done that we can discuss? I know SB is keen to discuss playing Friedel up front (or at least she's brought up playing a keeper up front a couple of times in her posts).

      Drivel, drivel everywhere and not a drop to drink.

      • 1 Reply to Jlock
      • "Its far better making what may be perceived as a mistake and then correcting it to show how clever you are."

        not really john. i dont think u need to be clever or know much about football to know that playing vert at LB & caulker/dawson at CB, makes more sense than playing dempsey,defoe & bale out of position or in positions they are far less effective in.
        the 1st option was the far more logical and most likely effective thing to do.

        just like i dont think u need to clever to realise going for the prize of 3pts against villa despite the possible loss of 1pt, was the far more logical and most likely effective thing to do.

    • '....What do you mean "I try to keep it on a seperate thread"? If I am not mistaken you are the most prolific poster on here and pretty much each time your posts are the same i.e. laden with boring statistics ("Statistics, statistics and lies"), links to other sites that are only loosly based on whatever it is you have a point on and always taking a slight issue with whatever somebody else has said - EVEN if they have pointed out it is just their opinion....'

      What I mean is, I started this thread to continue the 'arry/Daffy/Villa bit that seemed to pollute each thread. Maybe I am insane, but I think if you look at virtually all of SB's posts, even when talking about AVB and whoever, she has managed to get 'arry or Daffy or VdV into the post. So I thought I'd start this thread so she, and you if you so wish, can vent your spleens and I'll reply to those points here. That way I can continue to talk about AVB or Dembele - the current Spurs team - elsewhere whilst addressing the '...but 'arry lost it...', '..Daffy will score lots....', '....VdV is on a zimmer...' here. Make sense? No? Oh well.

      '...Not rudely or in any angry sort of way (which might be better as then we could argue against whatever it is you have taken issue with) but in a slow, slightly disagreeing way which, when someone responds to it, you drag out until whoever it is gets frustrated and bored - you win! Congratulations...'

      Again Sfer, IF, as you keep posting you find it so boring, don't reply. I honestly won't be offended. Couldn't I argue that you don't see my point of view just the same?

      '....SB, in her inimitable way, tried to engage with you, I tried but eventually gave up and I notice that Joe gave it a fairly good go too recently. But there is no point. You refuse to see somebody else's point of view. You must be a right pain in the Ar$e to live with John....'

      Is it me? Do you then see my point of view Sfer? I find it very strange that you seem to think you have a monopoly on being 'right'. You went to great lengths a while back to tell everyone how you had tried to reason with me as though it's a given that your opinion is all that matters.

      '....This board used to have a lot more posters who generally enjoyed poking fun and discussing topics of the day with a bit of Ar$e micky taking thrown in. Since you have come on here there are less posters, the laughs have dried up and because your posts are usually SO long and written with such boring stats and are always pointing out that IYO somebody else is wrong, people are not bothering to comment. Even Fab has given up FFS!!!...'

      Really? I state my opinion. I don't recall saying anyone else is wrong or that I'm right. But I will continue to state MY OPINION when anyone else states THEIR OPINION on a subject that I'm interested in. Does that make sense?

      I see your point of view and SB's, but I just don't agree. Isn't that the same as your standpoint with regard to me?

    • But WHY do you think you have to question any remark that is made on here and, if you don't agree with it, "prove" that person is wrong? Why can't you just accept that different people have different opinions?

      "not like the amateur punters and critics who can bleat all they like (to friends,"

      Can't you see how condescending that remark is? The vast majority of the Spurs fans that come on here are just expressing an opinion - for a bit of fun mostly - who gave you the job of "correcting" everybody?

      We don't want to "attack" a fellow Spurs supporter and we are trying to address the point - that point is you are ruining this board (IMO obviously) with your endless, very long, stat laden, boring posts which seem to come after ANYBODY says ANYTHING. As I said, its getting to the point where less and less people are posting anything because they know whats coming - you!

      Where did I ever say I didn't like Arry? In fact, when he was appointed I was one of only a few that welcomed his appoinment. I think that was before you discovered this board and started to ruin it. Towards the end I questioned some of his tactics but I never said I didn't like him and actually I wanted him to have another season at least.

      IMO you need to lighten up John and get a sense of humour. Do you apply the same ideology to your daily life as you do in here? Do you continually pick people up on whatever they have said and then go away and research it so that you can contact them afterwards and "prove" they were wrong? Christ, you must be a real bundle of laughs. Party invites a bit scarce are they John?

      John the Crusader, self appointed Sherriff of the Spurs message board. Be careful all who enter here - think about what you are going to post, check it for accuracy before you post it and be prepared to back up anything you say with stats as and when questioned by John the Baptist.

      "How mad am I"? Well madness is very difficult to measure John, if madness could be measured by how annoying someone is you would classify, but you are driving me mad thats for sure.

    • Yep - just as I thought - you are either too thick (which I don't actually think you are) or just too plain arrogant to acknowledge you are ruining this for others.

      I do ignore just about everything you post John but this thread - which you have dominated and used to prove everything I have said about you - provoked me into responding.

      As you have driven off the other posters that I used to like to have some banter with, pretty much the only posts on this board now are yours. I am not trying to stop anybody else posting whatever they want - only you, and it is only you because you are ruining the board. If you were just a plain old idiot who posted stupid things I could put up with that - there have been a few of those over the years - but your comments are more acidic, sly and corrosive than others.

      I had run ins with SB to start off with when she first came on here but she was just trying to get her points across and her style takes some getting used to but once you understand she is a bit different then you accept her comments for what they are. I don't always agree with them but you can't knock her enthusiasm.

      You on the other hand, seem to be able to pick a hole in any comment no matter how careful anybody is in wording whatever they want to say. You are picky beyond belief, but worse than that, you are condescending. Your comments, that I pointed out to you, were in effect saying that everybody else that has a view is a thick moron and its up to you to point that out.

      I have ignored you for quite a while but seeing as you started this thread " I started this thread for exactly that reason - to stop every thread becoming a 'discussion' about 'arry, Daffy, Villa and VDV" i.e. trying to restrict what others were happy to discuss, I thought I would get all of my thoughts about you out in one place.

      Hopefully, others will see that this thread is all about you, not bother reading all of it and concentrate on trying to keep the board in general alive rather than see it slowly strangled by your self inflated ego.

    • Evening fellow Yids.
      AT LAST.
      I've been trying to get back on here since last week to add my bit(.even had my daughters and sons and thier friends helping toget me back on, without any luck,THEN HEY PRESTO every things back on.)
      As i was trying to get back on, i noticed on an ARSE thread(just wanted to see if they were slaging us off) that one of them had posted WHY NO THREADS since the 19th,which is about the time i couldn't get back on(kept asking me to create an alias).
      I can just about remember my own name let alone one thats not mine.
      Anyway, thank fcuk we're finally back on and after apollagising to the family for accusing them of breaking the computer,i can get back to reading the threads and adding my 2 pennith.
      Looking forward to chatting to you all soon.

      COYS atb JEFFALL

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