• Arsenal Message Board

  • AndyPandy AndyPandy Jun 4, 2009 06:21 Flag

    Can anyone break into the top four places?

    Man City free of the pressures of europe could definately go on a charge, add to that a few quality signings and could they just do it?

    If so who would drop out?

    I wonder if the ageing Chelsea team could slip up next season!

    If the new money means City, Sunderland and Pompey spend loads more than the rest, there could be quite a battle for places in the years to come. Teams would be getting in more debt just to maintain there position, and sooner or later my view is that it will all end up in tears with a big club going 'Leedsey Loo'.

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    • "Can anyone break into the top four places?"

      Top FOUR?

      I see no top four any more.

      Liverpool will be lucky to make seventh this season.

    • Excellent posts all of you. AndyPandy-PaulC- Felix et al.
      A real pleasure to read your debates. The quality here far out weighs other boards incl. MUtd.

    • So what will happen to Liverpool now??

    • For example Microsoft is a very good example. here is copany which is completely debt free, and would have gone into debt if they bought yahoo.

      So why cannot Arsenal be debt free like Microsoft. They are also a huge organisation, and Im sure in the future Arsenal will also go from strength to strength. After all it is one of the main of objective of the club.

    • We have I think managed to hold on to players who we have wanted to hold on to
      In the case of flamini sorry but i thought the Arsenal made him a fair offer in all honesty
      And in the case of Pleb well he is just a greedy bar steward who thinks a) he is better than he is and b) is worth lots more than he is
      and thet is the type of player we can do well without neither have to be frank done much after they left
      I thought it a shame in flaminis case but no player is ever going to be bigger than Arsenal

    • It will be as successful as Barce. When our debt does clear, Wenger will have a larger transfer budget. Be able to give larger wages. Most likely in bonuses as this gives a more accountable income and perfomances realated pay. This has often been our key problem, holding onto players and a very rigid wage structure. And soon AFC will be able to compete on the transfer market with other clubs.

    • Liverpool another which has been spending allot of money reagardless of financial sustainabilty. Again being privately funded and buying players left, right and centre doesnt help. Players such as Dossena, Pennent, Carson, Bellamy, Krompkamp, Keane, Lucas and Babel have all been bought and sold within a short period of time, regardless of recouping the original transfer cost. They also still havent fully finished the finalisation of the new grounds. The Owners both cannot stand each other and neither does the manager have a positive relationship with the owners nor does he understand the fiancal implications of constantly buying players at his wish.

      Man utd heavilty within debt of £800m+ (may have gone down now slightly). Although they have been recently enjoying the success of the winning the premiership (which I congratulate them with) are having problmes within the team. Berbatov a £30m striker which the Fans have turned agaisnt. Ronaldo a playboy twat which is bringing more disharmony within the team, with his arrogant comments and emands. They also have Tevez which is a Fan favourite but cannot be bought because of the heavy debt and the £30m fund allocated to Berbatov. Brings more fans disapproval. Allot of Tv oersonalities and Ex players voted AFC out of the top four when Henry left, But history has shown that AFC survived without our talimatic striker and that none is bigger than the club. But can Man utd survive without Ronaldo. As much as I hate him, he truly is a great player with immense talent, and is no secret to say that his form and performane has a strong correlation with Man utd's success.

      There will be Challengers such as Aston Villa, Pompey and Man City. But they have allot of building to do, within the structure of their business and club before they can reach AFC. Look at Fulham who are enjoying the success of team cohesion and brilliant tactician. qualities at time which cannot be bought. But more so at times you need LUCK.

      As long as Arsene Wenger stays in power I cannot see AFC ever finishing below 4th spot. We have players who can slearly compete with the top four already and such young age, we do not have to worry about replacement like chelsea, saving cost. (yes I know this is long but I couldnt sleep).

      • 1 Reply to FENIX
      • I think we may be vulnerable in the short term but not over the long haul
        Out of the current top 4 teams we are the only team who is paying back the debt
        Man U are adding to there debt as they are paying interest only and at a very high % 9 i think the figure is so the overhang is getting larger at some point they will have to address this
        Liverpool are in a very bad situation they need to move and build a larger stadium and they have a large debt same as Man U when the current owners borrowed against the clubs assets to buy the club.
        Chelsea have operating debt as they pay more out in wages ect than is coming in in gate receipts TV money ect they would have big problems if their owner decided he was fed up with his "big boy toy"
        Arsenal have a large debt due entirely to building a new stadium they have the funds to come from the highbury development (maybe not as much now as hoped) but the debt is being paid down year on year , they have a fantastic academy producing decent players not all will make it at Arsenal but even if the average 25% make it this saves loads of money so will be fine in the long term but I fear we do have short term worries what with all the new arab funds comming in to Man city( eastlands is rented from manchester council) and now Pompy (who need a team and a stadium) I also think as the spanish waiter has shown it is fine to be able to buy players but can you mold them into a team in the case of liverpool not always is the answer and how he still has a job with his transfer boobs is anyones guess

    • I belive Arsenal in the years to come will always be in top four spots.

      The reason being is because of our consistency in all departments.

      Finance: AFC are in debt which is excess of £200m. But as long as Wenger can keep us in the CL as long as possible and other tournaments our gates receipt income + TV and lets not forget merchandise etc etc will steadily decrease this.

      AFC stadium consistantly has over 50,000 sold out seats for every match. Even our youth team get 30,000 attendence. Some premiership teams and Championship teams would be very grateful for that.

      Arsenals property development at highbury ground is yet to finish and should also oull around the region £250m+ (this can debateble due to the current economic limate, hopefully by the time they finish this crap will be over, also allot of the aprtments have been already sold). This will be a huge long term investment as all flats be be leased which will mean life time income.

      AFC's structured wage package for players are very prudent and budgeted according to clubs finance and sustainability. Not every player is receiving a high wage because they feel like it, but rather through time and progression they are rewarded.

      AFC's youth system will become a integral part of its future sustainabilty. Being able to produce young talent will heavily benefit the club's future. The sucess has also come from AFC's excellent scouting team and network. This will mean being able to channel funds into the right departments such as players wage and transfer budgets to bring in players which will add quality and greater team. Not buying players left right centre for the sake of it like the other clubs. This often brings unstability, lowers realtions with the fans and often attracts and projects the wrong image to potential future players.

      It is only matter of time before this debt is rid and AFC will be debt free. Then AFC willl truly enjoy its own success. The greatest asset and success for AFC has been Arsene Wenger and the ability to keep under employment. Through all the hard times and and all the great players leaving for bigger clubs, there always has been one, resolute factor of AFC's progression and that has been Arsene Wenger. With his Brilliant mind, his undoubted success has been keeping AFC in top flight football without the heavy funding which is required from the other top clubs.Wenger also has a great relationship with the boared which is another part of his success, he undertands the financial and business sustainabilty for AFC and utilises the limited resources which he has and the boared provides with full potential. Yes AFC has not been winning trophies and reaping the prize money, but consistency is far greater imporatnce in a businesss and expecially times like this.

      Liverpool, Chelsea and Man utd have reaped allot of success since their private ownership. But look at the cost now. Chelsea are in heavy debt, they made a loss (I Think £80m) last year when they went to the CL final, this proves the clubs finances and business plan is far from sustainable. If another down turn in the conomy occurs it will mean serious bad news for Chelsea, as Roman has lost already a huge substantial amount of wealth. And I dont think his pocket's can afford that. Since maurinho's departure the club has seen now over 4 managers occupy the position. This only brings more un-stabilty and uncertainty. And when the Chairmen starts dictating the way the team should play football and disregard the managers expertise this can only bring more trouble.

      • 1 Reply to FENIX
      • Arsenal will never be a debt-free club. Arsenal is a very large company and will always use its position to gear its investments if it is possible to make a profit. Arsenal may reach a lower level of debt as the cost of the stadium gets paid off.

        The problem that is being talked about is that clubs like Man Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool and Man City are running up levels of debt that cannot be serviced by the Club itself in a sustainable manner, so the owners are stepping in the cover the debt. This is unsustainable in the long run because the Club as a company cannot pay off its debts. When some of these owners decide to pull out and minimise their losses, the clubs will be in huge financial struggle.

        So going back to the topic, Arsenal seem to have a very prudent financial timeline that they stick to, and in this way will always be able to service their debts in a timely manner. And given the current financial crisis, it may be difficult for some of the other clubs to roll over their debt instruments.

        So arsenal should remain in the top four for a long time in theory, since the squad is getting better, and they would be looking to add extra quality at the same time as developing the current squad.

        Man Utd will always be in the top four, debt or no debt. If they sell Ronaldo they will make a heap of money, and can use this to buy 2 or 3 other world class players without going into further debt.

        Liverpool on the otherhand are at a very tight spot i think. They are playing good football now, and have a good coach. But financially they are in a lot of trouble, and this may lead to the selling of key players, or players leaving because wages cannot be met. Besides Gerrard, Carragher and possibly Torres for the short term, they don't have massive loyalty at the club.

        Chelsea are in my opinion the most likely to suffer. Ancelotti is a proven Serie A coach, but as we have seen in the Premier League, a proven coach in other leagues doesn't mean jack. Even great coaches like Scolari and Murinho couldn't even hold there own at the club doing pretty well, imagine Chelsea get off to a nightmare start? The club would be in crisis mode, firing people left and right. And when you look at their squad, players are getting old, and if Terry thinks they will get Kaka and Ribery they can keep dreaming. Their owner has held chelsea for a long time now, and it is only a matter of time before he moves elsewhere. He is only using the club as a financial instrument in whatever scheme he is running, and when he has achieved what he wants, he will go and so will players wages, record transfer fees etc. And the worst prospect for Chelsea fans is that the next group to buy Chelsea probably need to be richer than Abramovich. Good luck trying to find someone like that that is willing to take on so much debt.