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  • Gray's Ghost Gray's Ghost Jan 8, 2008 22:10 Flag

    Can someone explain "spying" to me please

    When I was a kid I read a comic and in that there was a spy who crept into other companies, buildings, offices - photographed information, and this was then used by his employers.

    With this whole McLaren - Ferrari debacle there is one thing I don't understand.

    A Ferrari employee gives a file free of charge to a McLaren employee. McLaren are found to have this file and are successfully accused of spying.

    Does this mean that if McLaren photocopy a file, send it in the post to Ferrari/Toyota/Force India and get the FIA to turn up as the post is opened they can be accused of spying?

    When did industrial espionage and spying include the free gift of information from an employee to his company's competitors? As I said can someone explain this to me because no matter how much I read on this, and I'm sure paddock is going to supply me with several links (which I welcome), I don't understand.

    The fact that McLaren then used this information is hardly surprising - gift horses and mouths spring to mind - unscrupulous use of competitor's information YES, but spying? I really honestly don't understand.

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    • No! Not really!

    • True, danimik.
      However, as with speeding, someone may chose not keep to the rules, but if not & they get caught then they can expect to be punished.
      Having laws, whether self-regulated or not, never stops someone breaking them. If it did we would never have crime.
      My original point was that it should be made totally clear what is opinion & what fact by those commenting who are looked on as experts in the field.
      At present it`s all too often a case of so-'n-so said it so it must be true.
      I make no distinction between who`s saying what - it should be a general rule that applies to all.
      e.g. It would apply as much to Max as to Martin B.

    • The question regarding the use of the word 'spying' is pedantic and tiresome (maybe deliberately so and mischievous)? As others have explained it is just a convenient term coined by someone to simply refer to the whole carry on. That's it.
      However ..... Spying in the classic sense almost inevitably involves some betrayal of trust. Given the betrayals of trust involved in this whole mess - from individuals acting independently, teams and their leaders behaving deceitfully and hypocritically, media reporting scurioulisly and sensationally through to the governing body and their officers treating the public with contempt - the use of the term 'spying' is not entirely inappropropriate.

    • The code is self-monitored. The industry regulates itself.

      The whole point of advertising is to convince, to persuade, to influence - that's about putting spin on things.

      I know the rules are there, but they are so loose, they protect no one. Why else target youngsters with fattening foodstuffs, toys (particularly around Xmas.)

      Its an industry that only adds costs to the consumer whilst attempting to con them. How many car companies talk about excellent customer service? How many energy companies talk about the efforts they make in customer service? And their ecords? Do they stack up to all the promises?

      Saying they are covered by rules and regulations is like saying that every motorist keeps to the speed limit. And how many more motorists would keep to the speed limit if the whole thing was self-regulating?

    • LOL - Now the reference numbers would be a brilliant idea if we were likely to remember them. You know what it`s like after the odd one or two at the Woolsack ;-)
      Much easier would be if the board had a way to link back to past posts, as many others do. I for one would be all for that.

      The Gounod. Ah, there`s a sorry tale, sirrah. :(
      I gave the details to `t other 'arf. He went to their website & requested the 5 nights & was informed (as with the others) Sorry, those dates not available - or similar wording.
      After much exasperated muttering, he decided to wait until mid-January when, apparently, the hotels start taking private bookings again.
      Meanwhile, friend whose idea it was to go changed jobs & now can`t get May/June vacation.
      Hubby starts to have second thoughts. I, like a certain past President of the US, cannot lie & tell him he`ll be missing a good race (well, this is Monaco we`re talking about) so have taken the "You`ll love the atmosphere" tack.
      So, it`s still on the cards as long as we can find somewhere decent to stay. If not it will just be more Euros to spend elsewhere, I suppose........ maybe go earlier & see the historic instead?

    • CAP code (non broadcast)
      7.1 No marketing communication should mislead, or be likely to mislead, by inaccuracy, ambiguity, exaggeration, omission or otherwise.
      8.1 Marketers may give a view about any matter, including the qualities or desirability of their products, provided it is clear that they are expressing their own opinion rather than stating a fact. Assertions that go beyond subjective opinions are subject to 3.1 above (also see 12.1 below).
      can look up if you want. There are also codes & standards covering TV, Radio etc.

      The others referred to are 3.1 Substantiatin & 12.1 [Political Advertising]

      People break the rules & chance taking the punishment but it doesn`t mean the rules aren`t there, danimink.

    • As one able to down a brandy one hand, port the other and type all at same time you're well capable of conducting your own case p. Mick can do the hand-stands at the bar!
      Re. regurgitation of discussions, I've an idea. We simply give old posts a reference number then quote the reference. So thread goes : A-"Is JT a red spy?" B-"22Nov,10.34!!". A-"15July,2.06am?". C-"03May2.46pm!?" B-"07Dec,5.15am." D-"Why?" B-"Cos you're a lieing McFerrarenault b....!!!" - (some things never change) but get the point?
      Reminds me of the old joke where a group in pub are quoting numbers to each other. Every time someone says a number all others roll about laughing. A stranger asks what's going on. Reply "We're telling jokes. We've numbered them all to save having to tell the whole joke." Stranger thinks I'll try that so says, "83". Nobody laughs, silence. He asks why no-one laughed, "Is 83 not a funny joke?". Reply "Joke's OK but it's the way that you tell them!" Keep telling it your way p, have a gre-e-a-at year! ps did you have any joy at the Gounod?

    • What?

      Advertising doesn't attempt to mislead the public? Smoking makes you sexy! Being drunk is manly?

      I remember when tv's were black and white - and shirts in washing powder adverts appeared 'whiter' if they were actually yellow.

      Of course advertising is about lying, misleading, hiding stuff. If they told you the truth - all the truth - there would be no advertising industry. A lie can be either by omission or commission. In advertising, its mainly by omission - they forget to tell you that taking out that extra loan to pay off all your debts will cost you a lot more in the long run...

      Now add in another factor - explicit and implicit. Much of the advertising industry words by implying something - like cigarette smoking makes you sexy, adult, suave - even when the evidence is contrary to the implication. Why else have all those adverts for McDonalds on when the kids come home from school...

    • Ah, Petrus, the voice of friendly logic & total insanity - welcome back :o)
      I own up to going over the old subject again....& again...... & again :(
      However, in my defence I replied I didn`t start the thread.
      Incidentally, please note that I am conducting my own defence. I decided, despite the advice of my fellow countrymen, not to engage that famous legal eagle Ill Will QC.

      Mick or his brother have offered to stand at the bar. Well, it appeared that way until a large one was mentioned. At that point Mick`s mind turned to meddling........ We`ve heard nothing from him since so I can only presume he`s still otherwise occupied ;-)

    • Having enjoyed a few days of tranquility and calm, recuperating from the festive period's heady excesses and having vowed to turn my back for all time on the Devil's Necter (again) I returned to the F1 forum. This with a spring in my step, a gleam in my eye and a clear, vigourous mind; my intellect refreshed and eager in anticipation of the wit and repartee awaiting and looking forward with the awe and wonderment of a veritable virgin to a new year of action, fresh topics and zestful discussion ......... then I read this thread.
      A sad round-shouldered shambling lunatic, gibbering unintelligibly I was last seen running ape-like and naked up the motorway in search of the fabled Woolsack where wicked drinks, bizarre rites with over-friendly sheep and the company of deranged idiots beckons in a strangely comforting almost normal way.
      2008 and the clock's stuck ... paddock, graemej, mick .. are you there?

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