Liverpool Message Board
To be playing as badly as we have, for many have written us off as also rans, and to be a side full of poor players, that we are ONLY six points off of top after 10 games. Spurs have been improving, and are rated, City are shoe ins for the top four. BUT we are still thereabouts, having been wretched at times, especially recently. I can't remember a worse start to a season, set against initial expectations.
It doesn't change much I suppose. In many mids we are as likely to go away and lose to Fulham next week as we were to win yesterday. Many still want Rafa sacked. Most still want Lucas sold (I thought he was our best player yesterday and was everywhere on the pitch).
I look at it that we can only get better. I don't care about Lyon, or Arsenal midweek. My mind is on Fulham next week, and our league form. Arsenal may well beat us on Wednesday, given their kids have more experience than our kids (pacheco, spearing, kelly all set to start). Lyon away is going to be difficult, and we need to win, so may well get caught on the break. BUT we need Torres and Gerrard rested for the league and only the league.
As great as the Man U win is for Liverpool, Fulham away will be the ultimate test for your lot. If Liverpool can pass that test with flying colours and come away with 3 points on Saturday, then ending the season in one of the top 4 spots is 65% guaranteed. If not, I expect City/Spurs/Villa and Liverpool to battle for the final CL place.
I think the over-reliance on Gerrard and Torres is Liverpools main downfall, you need to have at least 2 other decent players in the squad who can be equally relied upon when those two aren't a good game which they will from time to time. Having adequate replacements for your key players is very important to challenge in all competitions, this is a key weakness area where urgent attention is needed by Rafa.
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Don't agree that Fulham is a must win otherwise its goodbye top 4, but I do think it’s important to follow up strong as a show of our intent. Actually while the league is going to be a steep hill to climb if we still want to win it, it’s not beyond the realm of possibility. Both Chelsea and the Mancs are beatable, and not only by other top clubs, so expect the eventual title winner whoever it ends up being, to do it with one of the lowest shares of the points in a while.
But on the so called 2 man team thing, don't you think this one is getting old yet? Of course both Gerrard and Torres are world class players, and well above the level of anyone in our squad who'd come in to replace them. But that is true of many clubs. Take away 2 of their world class (if they even have 2) players and see what they look like?
But in our case it’s even amplified because they both play such a similar role for us. Yes Gerrard is still listed as a midfielder, but is essentially a second striker these days, so is more likely to play alongside or behind Torres than sitting in central midfield. So take my previous question and take two away from the same position: two central defenders, two wingers, two central midfielders, or in our case two world class strikers.
"If Liverpool can pass that test with flying colours and come away with 3 points on Saturday, then ending the season in one of the top 4 spots is 65% guaranteed. If not, I expect City/Spurs/Villa and Liverpool to battle for the final CL place. " Only Slayer can come up with something as stupid as this. How can you guarantee something with 65% is beyond me. But it gets even better, if you lose this game, that's it, forget top 4 finish.
Slayer, you know f*ck all about football. You keep embarrassing yourself yet you haven't got a clue, do you.
So you decided to come back on the board, but see you waited until almost everyone has left before you showed yourself. Not like last week when you had to try and have the last word on almost very post!
As for Torres, so I take it you'd not put him in the top 5 of strikers worldwide? Think you'd be in the minority, as most think of him as top or 2nd in the world right now. Really I'd say it’s between him and Drogba at the moment.
..WTF planet are u on now..............im not the idiot announcing ''im off the boards for a few days'', yet posted for most of them..
Torres, World Class.................NO............NO..............NO....not yet.
let him prove himself top scorer in the EPL, consistantly, then yes he can be classed as
Remember this and its a big thing you novice fans tend to neglect, someone can be in the top 2 in the world as you say right now, but still not be called WORLD CLASS, that may well just be indicative of whose around at the minute.
..Torres has amazing ability and potential, let him prove it consistantly....Rooney is world class over Torres so far, thats the bench mark.
Robert, I think we saw last year, that Chelsea without Essien available for much of it, were unable to finish above United or even ourselves. If you pushed Drogba into that equation too, without Essien and Drogba, I certainly think we'd beat you more times than we'd lose out of 10 matches or so. With them i'd expect that you;'d beat us more times than we'd get the result....United likewise take away Rooney and Ronaldo. LuckilyUnited have willingly sold one of those for us already:-)
Take Fabregas and Walcott out of Arsenals side (as last season when they struggled).
On the other note, my definition of world class is to be in the top three of your postion in the world. Up front you'd have Torres, Drogba and Ibrahimovic for me so far this season. Creative centre midfielders, probably Gerrard, Xavi and Iniesta, defensive midfielders, Essien, Senna and Mascherano, Centre backs probably Chiellini, Terry, and Vidic (despite Torres being his nemesis) and keepers, Buffon, Casillas, and I'm going to say Reina, (the third spot is soooo arguable), In the wide positions, there is a bit of a weakness in world football IMO. Ronaldo and Messi of course. after that pick your own, and at full back, the vain lad at Barca who's had his ears pinned back, Ashley Cole possibly, after that again, its very subjective. The spine of the team though is fairly easy to pick.
Oh: and for the united fans......Rooney IS NOT world class yet. He's very good. But someone who has lived in Ronaldo's shadow for season after season, who hasn';t for me dominated a BIG game yet, and where most of his best flashes came as a youngster just arrived at United, and with England in 2004, I wonder if the best has been coached out of him. Rooney needs positional discipline and an awareness of how he can cause most damage. I think he CAN get there, but he's not maturing into the player I once thought he might be, ie. one of the worlds best!
Well, certainly, you came above us last season - an aberration which we will no doubt correct this season.
So why weren't Chelsea the perfect team I suppose them to be last season? We had Essien, Drogba and Joe Cole out for much of it. This didn't help. We had yet more management problems which seemed not to help either although I'm not sure how much those of us on the outside can read into that. However, once Hiddink arrived we were pretty solid.
For both our teams, we would have won the league were it not for the bad patch in the middle of winter. We both drew too many games we should have won. It's obvious to me that the reason for this is that Chelsea had some valid excuses and were unlucky and that Liverpool are a crap team who can't last a season. And it's obvious to you that Liverpool had some valid excuses and were unlucky and Chelsea are a crap team whose supporters are a bit too full of themselves. This is how it goes.
As for "world class" I really think it's a sterile debate, like the Gerrard v Lampard nonsense that comes up so often. I'd sooner have Lampard than Gerrard, you vice versa. I'd sooner have Terry than Carragher, you vice versa. I'd sooner have Cech than Reina, you vice versa. I'd sooner have Bosingwa than Johnson, you vice versa. And so on. The only one of your players I'd have rather than ours is Torres against Drogba. Not because I think Torres is better at the moment - I don't. But he's younger and in two or three years will be still at his peak whereas Drogba is inevitably going to lose pace, power and fitness.
Liverpool have 4 World class players in Reina, Gerrard, Mascherano and Torres
Chelsea have 5 in A. Cole, Terry, Essien, Lampard and Drogba
Man U have 4 in Vidic, Ferdinand, Evra and Rooney
Arsenal 2 in Fabregas and Arshavin
City have 2 in Tevez and Robihno
And thats it!
Although in the 18 years since the World footballer of the year awards have been published, in all those years of there being a top three, only 7 players based in Britiain have ever made the list.
Two from United, Two from Arsenal, One each from Chelsea and Liverpool, and one from Spurs. Only one of those has ever won.
Out of those only three of those were players qualified for England.
Just out of interest Serie A has had 13 Italian based players in the top 3, and Spain has had 15 of theirs make the top 3, Germany 2 (both German), and France (one French) 2. The winners have all been either Portuguese, Liberian, Brazilian, French, German, Dutch or Italian.
That would suggest that British players are largely also rans, and that our league DOES NOT as we like to claim, attract the best players.
If you have to have made that list then Gerrard, Rooney, Fabregas, Drogba, Essien, none are world class. In fact it would suggest the Prem has only two current world class players, only one being English..
Vlad, maybe Sean will listen to you as I was going to point out the same thing on the goal tally, and the fact Torres has been doing it at International level both at the Euro's and in qualifiers for WC. Think that means he's been at the top for at least the last 2 seasons, so hardly a flash in the pan. But I think Sean is looking for almost anything at the moment he can disagree with me on.
Robert, it is a pointless argument to decide who really is world class, so Vlad you can take this one as a reply back to you also. First you've got to settle on a definition. I think top 3 is a fair, but who's to say why not top 2, so we get a "World Class" 22? But by that definition I'd have to admitt that Gerrard might not make the cut, along with some other very very talented footballers.
Its also very very subjective, and prone to all the prejudices that club supporters have. Hence the similaraties between the Gerrard versus Lampard debate. Bottom line is who is better cannot be answered. You have your opinion, I have mine. Both are very very good players, so we should be able to leave it at that.
But, my point was Gerrard and Torres are in a class beyond most footballers, so removing them has a huge impact on the squad. I used "World Class" to illustrate how much better they are, but you can use any definition you want; very very good, best of the squad, pinicale of a 2 man team if you really want to.
While Chelsea I do beleive has many more players of top quality that liverpool to fill out its squad, even you would miss two really top quality game changers. Like sideshow answered look a the difference when you have a fit Essien (no doubt top 3 in the world in his position), and a Drogba who wants to play. Your a good team without them, but much better with them. And, that can mean the difference between getting the points or not over 90 minutes.
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