Liverpool Message Board
There has been a lot of discussion lately of why Rafa has gone for so many players on free transfers. I think the obvious reason is that we just don't have the funds, and therefore have had to take a punt on a few freebies. It’s a bit hard to put all the blame on Rafa for shopping in the discount shop, when he's not given enough funds recently to splash in the nicer showrooms.
Of course most freebies are not what most would consider top class players. But top be fair the ones we've brought in have been brought in as back up's or squad players. Voronin was never going to the first choice striker, but a punt to see if he could fill out the squad. Same thing for Degen, the lad has pace, European and international experience, and while not likely ever to be the first choice RB, hopefully when fit again he can play second fiddle to Johnson.
But is a freebie useless, just because he's free? Players run down their contracts for many reasons, and so to assume there existing club would keep them if they were any good is nonsense. From a player’s perspective, while they'd like a small percentage of a transfer fee, the real gain is getting a better and bigger contract. Running down the existing one often can be the best way of doing that.
So let’s just hope Maxi is better than his transfer fee, and we see shades of his last world cup performance. But just to illustrate how players can often be better than the transfer fees paid, does anyone remember how much Real Madrid paid for Macca? Ironic that isn't it.
Alright people like collin would you please shut your mouths. I am no big Rafa fan, but i realise that he spent what he earned. Win in CL, and Fa Cup, and final of CL in three years. Thats your 220 million right there. Hes been stupid with that money but he has done well to earn it in the first place
Javonovic and Chamakh would be good signings even if they cost 8 mil each. Both quality players. Sure they're not world class but in comparison to most of your squad players, they're much better.
I'd much rather have Javonivic on the left or up front than Babel or Ngog. As for Chamakh he'll easily be the second best striker on your books.
Good deals if you can get them.
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Sorry but after reading this post have to make a comment, It seems that Colin is stating that Rafa has spent £220 m since his tenure, and although most people on here think the players are ok/good because we are having a s*** season it is Rafa's fault. My contribution to all this is simple "if" Rafa had £220m to spend in one go he would be able to go and buy the players he wants and we would have a team of Superstars, but if he has had to settle for dribs and drabs, so that he is able to try and build a team that will compete in all competitions, then it would be like looking in the shop window and wanting to buy the £100 item but only having £25 in your pocket with the thought that you may have to buy 2 items. You would then have to see how far you can make that £25 go even by buying and selling to make more money so that it goes further. That I belive is the postion of Rafa and if it wasn't You would have had H&G sacking him and bringing somebody else in.
So yes he may have spent £220m but he has not bought a mansion because he can't afford it instead he has had to settle for lots of cheaper houses bought over a long period of time.
I'll tell you one thing Colin, your sure know how to beat a dead horse. This thread was about free players, yet you still want to talk about how much Rafa has spent.
But I think I'll leave it alone, its obvious I can't change the way you think about this, or make you understand some simple principles about finance. Just ask that the next time you buy yourself a new car, or if you buy a new home in the future, you have a think about it, as I don't want you to think you can't afford it just because you forgot the car you might trade in, or the current home you might sell before buying a new one, will actually reduce the total you have to pay.
that is true enough and i think probably the most sensible and well reasoned opposition to the benitez has no money arugement. i think it comes down to the fact that whilst he has had money to spend its only been by initially weakening the team i.e. selling a squad player or a would be squad player to buy a better one. one the flip side, when was the last time utd or chelsea or city or villa or totenham had to sell to buy. if you are looking at what has been done with money it doesn't matter where it came from, but if you look at what is expected of the player and the team once the money has been spent, it is very important what the source is because obviously if we had been able to for exampl keep bellamy and buy torres would we not have more strength in depth?
dsteer...heres the real deal on transfers using your buy Yossi for 5 mill sell for 20mill add another 10mill and buy Villa for 30mill
OK ...You buy Yossi for 5 mill and sell for 20 mill then u take the entire 20mill plus 10mill more and spend it on Villa...indisputably Villa has cost the club 30 mill doesnt matter if the cash all came from the owners to buy him or some of it came from them in origin and the rest generated from player sales...VILLA would have cost the club 30 mill not the 15 mill u estimate...if he cost the club 15 mill where is the other 15 mill. before u answer that reverse the whole thing whereby a player u buy for 20 or two players or three or whatever that collectively cost 20 mill when they were signed are sold for a sum total of 5 mill then the club has lost overall 15 mill on the deal/deals.....
its a question of how much ACTUAL money has been spent by Benitez on players since he arrived not the NET SPEND...this because the debate is... has Benitez had the money available to spend or has he not had the money available to him to spend....
it doesnt matter WHERE the money came from... player sales or direct out of the owners pockets or your piggybank ...HE HAS STILL HAD THAT AMOUNT OF MONEY TO SPEND ON PLAYERS....Q.E.D.
both of you have points.
steer. he is saying that altho Rafa has spent around 220 million on transfers, it isnt that the owners gave him 220 mil and he spent it. The owners gave him much less, the rest he raised thru sales.
NJ. he is saying that counting only the money rafa spent, the players he spent it on arent worth it. and i agree with that.
now couple of my own points. Nj if you look at the squad players like dossena, morientes, and babel havent justidied their prive tag. But players like Torres, Alonso, and Masch have justified and tripled our quadripled theirs. So if you look at number of players, he overspent on most than underspent(eg. Torres) BUt when you look at overall, his overspent money was 2-5 million most of the time. His underspent was 10-40 million. so overall after all the adding of the money he spent and subtracting the money he raised the figure is 80 million.
my second point is that this is too much. considering the fact that we havent sold to weaken the squad, so we can raise money, except Alonso. the closest that comes to weakaning is selling Bellamy and buying Torres. So when we didnt weaken the squuad and just got rid of deadwood, 80 million looks like a huge sim.
And NJ cheers to beating Everton tommorow
Your right it does not matter where the money comes from, but it does matter if you try to count the same money twice. Like the house example. At the end of it you have not spent 4M (1M on house one, and 3M on house two), even if that is the total amount of the 2 transaction. If you had actually spent 4M you'd have two houses, but as you had to sell the first to be able to afford the second, obviously you don't own both. Put it this way, would you accept my criticism that if you had made these house purchases, I could say you’re a fool as you've spent 4M and have a home only worth 3M?
Its fair comment to criticize Rafa on individual players he's brought in. Some we very well might agree on as being bad moves, like Dossena for example. But I think we have to do it within a framework of reality, and the 220M often quoted is deliberately misleading.
We can all debate on how good we think certain players are, or how much players are worth. But because quality and worth is so subjective we'll have a wide range of opinions. However looking it in terms of cost, we can be much more objective. If we know how much the club has spent, and how much they've raised from sales, then we know how much the current squad cost. The only question left for debate then, is do we think the squad is worth at least what it cost, which is IMO is a fair judgment of how Rafa has done in the transfer market, but I'll leave that for another thread.
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