• Liverpool Message Board

  • Spion Koppite Spion Koppite Mar 4, 2012 10:58 Flag

    King Kenny or Court Jestor ?

    Leaving last weeks euphoria aside, Is there anyone else a bit disgruntled with Kenny Daglish. Currently in 7th position but more tellingly only 17 points above relegation and yet 27 behind the league leaders. Its only an opinion but is Kennys love for Liverpool clouding all out views on him. I just cant see the progress and yes any silverware is nice but its a big step down from titles and european trophies. Any others feel like me ?

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    • Top class

    • My favourite. What's the hero's name again?

      I'd probably have to start with a rewrite of the first story of his I read. If Roman keeps his yachts and carries on at the Bridge for a while it would be The Old Man at Chelsea, the story of a wizened old fisherman who spends his time reeling in and killing managerial sharks until one day one of them gets him.

      Or a biography of Lampard: The Son Also Rises.

      Or, before someone beats me to it, a history of Chelsea's champions league campaigns: Loser Take Nothing.


    • A re-write of 'for whom the bell tolls' might be apt at Chelsea if Roman's still around ;-)

    • I am constantly amazed that when I write something which I am sure is 100% clear and unambiguous, other people read some meaning into it I didn't intend.

      Partly it's the English language and partly it's that good writing is a much harder art than just bashing away at a keyboard.

      When I grow up I want to be Ernest Hemingway.


    • Fair point Robert. Like you say, best to leave it there. From my point of view, I was genuine when I said that my post wasn't intended to cause offense but I think Dave has misread another of my threads recently so maybe I need to rethink how I write these things.

    • Robert I believe you implied Dalglish had taken us backward, but as you've said again if we're about where we were in the league obviously he's not stuck in reverse.

      But lets move on if as it looks you agree he's not taken us backward, but are just questioning if he's taken us far enough forward to justify our continued support.

      League position is the simplest measurement, and getting the league title again, is our goal. However it’s not the only goal I think we should be looking at, at least while the project is obviously a work in progress. It maybe subjective to look at other factors, and different people will rank things differently, but factors like winning a domestic trophy, with you have to admit not the easiest path to victory, a unified squad, and by most independent pundits viewpoint better football played on match day even if its not always been followed by results, are all signs to me that the club has improved.

      Is that enough for any manager to keep his job long term? No, but is it a sign of progress over a single season that was always going to be a transition period, I'd say yes.

      But the real question is what are the expectations? It seems maybe you and some others who only come on here after LFC get a bad result have a much higher expectation of what Kenny could do than those who post on a regular basis. I was expecting a revival, and that is what I'm seeing.

      Maybe I've had a few days when watching games have been frustrating, but for the most part I've seen my team play some great football, many young players getting better, and a feeling that the days ahead are brighter than the ones we've just left behind. Maybe that's a bit subjective for someone who expects instant results otherwise its time to drop another 50M on this or that player, or bring in a new manager, but that type of feeling when watching my club, is what I'd call a revival.

    • I'm sure you're getting as bored with this as me, so maybe we should call it a day. It's a day. I'll just note that, where wide shoulders are concerned, playing away on these boards almost the whole time, I get a huge amount of crap thrown at me, and I like to think I throw a whole lot less back. If those three things are the worst you can think of (and I'm not even sure about the second and third) I haven't done too badly for my several thousand posts over the years.

      I'm sure if yahoo archiving wasn't broken you could find worse.


    • What's to understand? By league position and points almost three quarters of the way through the season you are about the same as last year, and rather behind any Benitez year I can see. So despite the hoopla about Dalglish and the CC, it's not clear you have made any progress. I'm not saying things have got worse, I'm saying things haven't seemingly got better, from a position that was generally deemed unacceptable.

      Benitez was sacked for losing you your CL spot. Hodgson seemed to be worse, although he was given even less time than AVB. There was an expectation on this board that Dalglish would make things significantly better and towards the end of last season you and others were talking about a great Dalglish revival.

      Doesn't it look like a false dawn? Don't you think this is why this board is now full of threads of Liverpool supporters asking why and where it has gone wrong and whether Dalglish is indeed your saviour?

      It seems to me that the main problem is in your attack - your difficulty in making goals. And it seems to me that it is in that area where Dalglish has made the most changes in his three transfer windows in charge. Your defence is still strong but, with the exception of Enrique, that was largely put together by Benitez, wasn't it?


    • Blimey Robert

      I think I followed all that!

      The "having a dig" bit wasn't because you were being critical of Liverpool it was because I was suspicious of the intention behind your post. That's why I asked the question (which you subsequently answered).

      As for taking offence, no I'm not offended by your statement because I know my original post wasn't intended as a "personal attack" on you.

      Even if I had straight out accused you of "having a dig at Liverpool" and being no better than some other "wind-up merchants" as you have surmised then the level of offence you have taken seems extreme. From memory (I haven't checked so please let me know if I've misquoted you) in the past you have -

      1) Referred to Kenny as King Kong
      2) Referred to Liverpool as a third tier team
      3) Popped on this board to tell us how good it was for Chelsea to be playing in Europe this season.

      There may be other examples that I can't think of at this moment in time.

      None of which cause any great offence but all of which I would suggest are attempts at least in part to stir the pot/wind up the locals/have a dig at Liverpool.

      If you are happy to post stuff like that on here surely you need to have wide enough shoulders not to take great personal offence if someone questions your motives for doing so?

    • As someone with quite a few years experience of earning a living from programming, I don't have a problem understanding "if". I do have a problem knowing exactly what you mean by "having a dig" and I also have a problem with moving from your "having a dig" to the conclusion you made.

      What is "having a dig"? Is it writing something which isn't uncritical praise of LFC? If so, I was having a dig. Dave asked what he called a simple question. Are you better off now you have Dalglish as manager. (His belief is that you clearly are.) My factual answer was to look at league results. (You agree with that.) Is that "having a dig"?

      Notwithstanding your "if", your haste to a conclusion seemed to imply you thought it was. Was the question focussed on whether I was "having a dig" or whether my presumed dig was the first post I had made since something or other. It looks rather like the latter.

      But why should writing something that isn't uncritical praise (or whatever "having a dig" means) of Liverpool make me no better than a wind-up merchant? You haven't explained that.

      I think what it comes down to is: *you* could have made my point using "we" rather than "you" and nobody would have made the personal remarks that you and two others made. Dave's response might have been the same, apart from the Chelsea bit. But the fact that I said it, even though you agreed with it, made it fair in your eyes, and the other two, to write something which attacked my integrity.

      Why have I taken offence? Try this.

      Am I right in thinking that your first post on this thread is to join in the personal attack on me, despite agreeing with what I said? If so, that makes you no better than the pea-brained, cowardly anonymous buillies who frequent these boards.

      What do you think of that? Logical? (It seems to me more logical than your claim.) Fair? Offensive? Does it seem to you that it is claimed you are no better than a P-BCAB? Don't you think that carries offence?

      "The "apparently" introduces a note of disbelief."

      "Apparently" is one of the words I use when I think something is true but I am not asserting it with the totality of my conviction. It isn't intended as a challenge, more as a working hypothesis. It annoys me when people tell me what I think (as they generally claim something I don't think) so I prefer to be cautious when telling people what they think. So I use "apparently" as "It seems to me you think..." rather than "you think...".

      Put it down not to disbelief as bafflement. I'm baffled as to why your response to something I wrote that you agreed with was to join in the attack on me.

      If, after all this, you still don't think your post carries the slightest offence, then maybe we can agree that you have something of the same talent as me: the ability to write posts that other people read in ways we hadn't intended.


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