Liverpool Message Board
This one is for our resident Chelsea fan Robert!
Pathetic behaviour from a section of the Chelsea support should hot up the atmosphere in the Cup final, and in the coming league match.
This shouldn't be a big source of disagreement between us. I was aiming at a different point in the bit you clipped but never mind. I can see why I thought I was writing one thing and you read a different thing.
I suspect you meant "criticising" rather than "condoning" in your first sentence. Either way, I do not believe I have excused the Chelsea fans or condoned them. I was trying to *explain* what caused them to make that noise then. Explaining is not excusing.
.I thought I paraphrased you quite accurately , and my post was about the whole idea of condoning and excusing an action in the same breath, which I felt you did.
I paraphrased = "It was to a tragedy to do with Liverpool fans and so we should not have expected Chelsea fans to behave a certain way."
You actually said = "Chelsea fans were expected to behave a certain way in respect even though the semi-final clubs were not involved in Hillsborough and with the background of LFC selfishly demanding not to play on the Sunday.
In the former case, don't tell us how to behave"
So how was that inaccurate?
"he posted about 10,000 threads on the Suarez racism subject and merely a handful on mr role model himself , John Terry."
Yes, I had long arguments with *some* people on this board about Suarez's likely or actual guilt. Some people pushed what I saw as unreasonable heavily biased viewpoints and I took issue. I don't apologise for that - I believe in what I wrote and my commentary was rather more in line with the FA findings than those I was arguing with. Other Liverpool fans didn't write what I saw as unreasonable opinions and I didn't have arguments with them.
Are you seriously suggesting I am unreasonable if I don't come on here and make 10,000 posts about John Terry? what do you think I should have been saying about him that I haven't? What I will do is let you into a little secret. If people on here start making what I see as unreasonable comments about John Terry I may well take issue with them. If that goes on for 10,000 posts so be it. I hope that won't happen.
"I am not defending or excusing the chelsea fans who chanted "Murderers" during the minutes silence "
No, I'm not. They were wrong and they embarrass Chelsea FC and other Chelsea fans. If CFC can identify them, revoke their memberships and season tickets and ban them from all Chelsea matches in future I will be happy.
"It was to a tragedy to do with Liverpool fans and so we should not have expected Chelsea fans to behave a certain way."
I haven't said that and don't believe it. What I said was even if people don't share the sentiments behind a minute's silence they should shut up anyway.
None of which is to say that LFC or its fans can't be criticised. Or do you think LFC and its fans are above criticism?
I think your real problem with me is that I'm not inside the tent pissing out but outside the tent pissing in.
"I think this almost guarantees that there is going to be some trouble in London before and after the match."
Why should there be?
On your comment "the sentiment 'we must be allowed to defend it' was ridiculous, the rules never allowed for that at the time. Why?"
The Crux of liverpools argument at the time was that Real Madrid were allowed in the exact same circumstances in 2000. So there was a precedence and so a decent right to appeal.
"Robert M's view is amongst the most reasonable you'll find"
I am not someone who is sad enough to go trawling through past threads and bring up some of the threads that have most annoyed me from this poster , but needless to say , I would never describe him as "reasonable".
Robert would have been the first one on his high horse if Liverpool fans had behaved so appallingly, in the same way that he posted about 10,000 threads on the Suarez racism subject and merely a handful on mr role model himself , John Terry.
The basis of his argument in this case , summarises as:
I am not defending or excusing the chelsea fans who chanted "Murderers" during the minutes silence , BUT...
- Kenny should have been more polite in his request not to play
- Chelsea were angry because it meant they had a days less rest before Barca
- It was to a tragedy to do with Liverpool fans and so we should not have expected Chelsea fans to behave a certain way.
- We are selfish
- We dont pay as much respect for the Heysel tragedy
Some of the more observant of you will notice is that these are all excuses.
In my opinion , it was an organised and audible protest from some despicable fans. Whilst I am not saying they were representative of CFC , I dont understand why every chelsea fan I hear condemn it has to say "........BUT........"
Unfortunately I think this almost guarantees that there is going to be some trouble in London before and after the match. So if you are going , keep safe.
So in your view it's offensive and disrespectful to bring up any criticism of LFC in relation to Hillsborough or Heysel, and so it shouldn't be done? Well, sorry, but I disagree and I reserve the same right as everyone else has to comment as I see fit. I try to keep things on topic. This was, to me at least, although you have failed to follow the logic.
If you can't help but read what I say and you want to be offended by it, well sorry. But if I believe in what I say and if I think it is fair comment, and I do in this, then the risk of you being offended may not be enough to stop me posting. Try to take less offence, or rise above it. You may notice I ignore a great deal of offensive remarks directed straight at me, including on this thread. It's the best way.
As I did with Sideshow, I'd like you to read this:
It says pretty much what I was trying to say, but more eloquently. Perhaps you will find it more acceptable than me.
As is common when I write stuff on this board that the locals don’t entirely agree with, the thread has split into a number of people commenting on my blurb. Rather than tackle them all individually, at various levels of temper on both sides, I will try in this post to explain why my comments have come out as they have. (You may not like it.)
First, thank you to Hobitez and Sideshow for your kind remarks.
The stuff I wrote about Hillsborough and my criticism of the Chelsea fans the other day was sincere, and will no doubt be echoed in other threads in due course. And I sincerely hope that both Chelsea fans and Liverpool fans refrain from using this as an excuse to have a go at each other in the cup final, or at Anfield. Both sets of fans have a responsibility not to wind things up.
I raised Heysel and this needs explaining as it is behind quite a lot of what I have written. So at the risk of upsetting you further I will explain that.
I am angry with LFC over Heysel. (Don’t even think of saying it was 27 years ago: that’s only slightly longer than Hillsborough.) I am not specifically holding an on-going grudge about the specific events, although when I review it in detail and think about my reactions on the night I get just as emotional as I do when thinking of the events at Hillsborough. No, I am angry that LFC doesn’t treat the Heysel victims with anything like the same reverence or concern as it does the Hillsborough victims.
Every Heysel victim is just as important a tragedy as every Hillsborough victim. LFC has rightly taken on a self-imposed responsibility to care for the Hillsborough victims’ families, through remembrance and campaigning in various forms. I believe LFC should have taken on a self-imposed responsibility for the Heysel victims too. Why? Because, to put it bluntly, but accurately: 39 Juventus fans died because of bad actions by Liverpool supporters. (Compare that with the thread title.)
We are rightly told that “some things are bigger than football”. Yes, Hillsborough was and that may well justify you not playing on April 15th. So was Heysel. Many fans died at both and they are both part of your history. One you (the LFC family) have no culpability for. The other, some. Yet you want to remember the former and not the latter.
Dave says: As for Hysel, I was not there yesterday, but from the coverage on LFCTV I saw it was not mentioned. I'm not sure why it should be as they are two separate and unrelated events. We don't mark the anniversary of Hysel in the same way as Hillsbrough, but why should we, it did not effect the club in the same way.
I’m angry because it affected me in the same way. I saw innocent football fans dying in two stadium disasters on what should have been festivals and happy occasions. I think if some things are bigger than football, then it damn well should affect LFC in the same way, because of the involvement of its fans. I think LFC has as much responsibility to remembrance of the Juventus victims in some way as it does to remembrance of the Hillsborough victims. I’m not asking you go and have services in Italy, I’m not even asking you to boycott 29th May, although that would show an agreeable consistency, but I’m asking for something better than the appearance of wanting to wash it under the carpet.
Loki: Heysel was on 29th May. Why would we even mention it on 15th April?
Because here is your opportunity to show that you mean it when you say some things are bigger than football. Your Hillsborough services should have a minute’s silence for the Juventus fans, or some other recognition. At the very least. Show that you want to remember Heysel for the human tragedy in the same way as you want to remember Hillsborough. Have some remembrance for what your fans caused, not just for what was caused to your fans.
I’ll get me coat.
- 2 Replies to Robert M
Now now Robert, this is a good discussion.
You are right about Heysel also being beyond football. I suppose we could have a service on 29th May, why would any of us be against it? But as someone has already said, we do have links with Juventus over this, and I think we do send a delegation over to Turin every year, but beyond that I don't know why we don't have services here too.
Somebody has already said that Hillsborough had a greater effect on LFC than Heysel, and that is true. On Remembrance Sunday, do the British remember the German dead? I don't think they do. That's the best way I can explain it I suppose, with that example.
With regards to the actions of Liverpool fans at Heysel, and yes they rushed the Italians, but the finger of blame should also be pointed at UEFA. The club wrote to UEFA months before the final, saying that the stadium was not fit to host the final, and as is usual in these cases (we saw it again at the Athens Olympic Stadium in 2007), the powers that be decided that they would ignore our concerns. Furthermore, they decided to put us next to Juventus' fans with only chicken wire separating them. This concern was also ignored. I don't know whether you are aware, but every time we play in Italy, particularly Roma and Napoli, (and by 'we' I mean British fans) there is always trouble from the Italians. More or less anywhere else, there's no real trouble. They started throwing stones in to our pen and spitting, what is the human reaction to that stuff? Turn the other cheek like Christians tell us to. Unrealistic not to expect a reaction. So fans decided to fight back, so yes, Liverpool fans rushed the Italians. As they fell back, one of the walls crumbled in that unsuitable sh*thole causing the deaths of those poor people.
I'm not excusing our fans, but not everything is as it seems with Heysel. Maybe the only fact that matters is that Liverpool fans' actions resulted in the wall to fall. Cause and effect. But if you are going to go down that route, then you have to say 'If UEFA listened to us in the first place, this couldn't have happened' - how far back do you go for blame?
I would be against remembering Heysel at any Hillsborough memorial. In fact I would be outraged if that happened. April 15 is for Hillsborough victims only in my opinion, as they are separate incidents. As I've already said, I would not be against a another service.
Returning to your many points about our selfishness, you are essentially saying that we should miss our mothers' funeral because it's your birthday party, otherwise we're selfish.
Anyway, this subject is becoming truly tedious to me. I shan't comment on anything other than football coz I've said everything I have to say on the subject.
Robert M, I don't think you know enough about Heysel to comment actually. At least it sounds that way. I have been there and paid my respects, and it was a tragedy in the same way Hillsborough was.
However it has a lot of similarities to Hillsborough, in that the circumstances were very much outside of the control of the fans inside the stadium and the club itself. This was NOT a case or organised hooliganism of the sort seen in the vicinity of many a Chelsea game. This was pure fear and panic, the roots of which were sown in a game a year earlier. In a stadium not up to hosting the game, and set up for a disaster. The club requested the game be moved beforehand, and had grave concerns over the policing and segregation of the fans (there was barely any).
Perhaps you need to read a bit more about it, because the blame for Heysel lies squarely with UEFA and the belgian authorities/policing. Or perhaps you believe the Thatcher myth.
I'm not saying our fans were blameless, but it was not what you think it was, and you should not say so as freely as you have. Shame on you.
BAck to the thread......the Chelsea fans that spoke up deserve punishment, and it is unforgiveable. Not all Chelsea fans are like that though.
I know a few Chelsea fans and they are very reasonable. I've also come across my share of absolute Chelsea hooligans, including had a wedding reception I was at turn into a punch up because of two in particular reacting to my calling a tattoo they had of something to do with Chelsea, a Millwall emblem. It looked similar and was blue.Prats. I had come back with a Gillingham scarf round my neck from a Wembley appearance that day, so they thought I was the enemy??! Chelsea and Gillingham, because they come up against each other a lot!
I'm sure all clubs have their share of pricks like those.
Robert, I'm trying to work out the disconnect here. We are not forcing the rest of the football world to go along with us. Yes we are asking, and they are agreeing, but we're not forcing anyone.
If the rest of the football world thought it was no longer a day worth remembering I've already told you I'm pretty sure we'd still not play, and would take the consequences for it. If that meant we had to forfeit a game, even a chance to play in a final, from my point of view, so be it, as I do truly believe some things are bigger than football.
As for Hysel, I was not there yesterday, but from the coverage on LFCTV I saw it was not mentioned. I'm not sure why it should be as they are two separate and unrelated events. We don't mark the anniversary of Hysel in the same way as Hillsbrough, but why should we, it did not effect the club in the same way. It would be like asking why Forrest don't do something on 15 of April every year.
But if you’re suggesting we are being insensitive, or only care about our own fans, I'd suggest you look back of coverage the last time we played Juventus in CL football, 20 years after the event. I think you'll find the Liverpool supporters tried to mark the occasion in a respectful manner and in a spirit of friendship. I hope the Juventus supports saw it that way.
My my Robert we are getting tetchy. I suggest you get laid once in a while. I don't believe I kicked up a fuss over this. Those idiots who booed spoke eloquently enough themselves about their mentality. In fact I haven't commented until our little tete-a-tete here.
Humility? Are we supposed to get on our knees asking that the other clubs sign a document saying they give us their permission to have 15th April off in perpetuity?
We refuse to play on 15th April. Yes we are thinking of ourselves in this matter before other clubs. How could it be any other way? It's called 'standing for your principles.' I don't care (And I doubt the club hiearchy do either) whether the rest of the football world is with us or not in this matter. We neither seek, desire nor need the approval of anyone but our own fans.
Heysel was on 29th May. Why would we even mention it on 15th April?
I have no problem with the idea that some things are bigger than football. I remember Dalglish saying the very same thing the evening of Hillsborough, and approving. But I think if you want to carry the rest of the football world with you a little more humility in the PR would have been good. And I must say, as gently as I am able to, I would like to see a little more recognition of Heysel from LFC.
I genuinely don't know the answer to this. Was Heysel mentioned at all in the Hillsborough commemoration the other day?
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