Liverpool Message Board
I seem to remember a number of posters on here denigrating the team's achievement last year as it was "only the league cup".
I wonder how those people are feeling this morning? Probably doesn't hurt as it's not that important to win cups - it's all about trying to finish higher than 8th isn't it.
As for fat lad - thank god we're not still lumbered with a manager who only came second and appeared in two CL finals. What an oaf.
Well any recognised cup that'll get us into European football.. has to be worth going for.. Even if it's the 2nd ranked cup in terms of importance.. In terms of English football. Behind the F.A Cup.
When are you guys going to wake up and check on reality.
I refer, of course to Andy Carroll and the much talked about Plan B.
Andy is playing at West Ham, a place where the manager supposedly loves him and the playing style suits him down to the ground.
Andy has figured in 6 or 7 games for West Ham now, depending on which stats site you visit.
What is not in question on any of those stats sites is this:
Goals Scored: 0
Goal Assists: 0
Now tell me, what sort of Plan B is it that has your supposedly goal scoring hero not only failing to score but also failing to create any assists, either?
Get real, please.
Andy Carroll is NOT going to save LFC.
Messi? Ronaldo? Falcao?
That young dutch kid Wolfswinkel at a goal every other game might if we can lure him away from Portugal, though.
It's a fair point to say we may not have enough options from the bench, or this case we had the options on the bench but were already up against it as we don't have enough to put on the pitch after rotating.
However when we talk about plan B, the issue of Carroll often gets raised. I personally thought he'd be a good option for this role, but after the last two outings, what do we really mean by a "plan B"?
Are we saying get someone on who can change the way we're playing as the plan A system is not working, or are we saying get someone it who will better implement the plan the side has been working on all week on the training ground?
Seems to me that BR wants the second version, and as has been said is not shy about making proactive changes if he see's things are not working. At the weekend he moved to 3 CB's to counter the height and power of Everton, and it seemed that allowed us to better control the ball. Last night he did not change the set up, but got in better players who can implement the plan better, and by all accounts while it did not pay off in the result, it did give us a fighting chance in the 2nd half.
So is a plan B a big lanky striker so we can go more direct when keeping it on the floor is not working, or is it pulling a player having a bad day, with someone who can do the same job, only better?
Honest answer now Colin I'd go with BR. I know I wanted Kenny to say but with what I know now I'm not sure he could have squeezed much more out of the squad he had. Maybe pushed on a little in the league, but still think we would have been a long shot for a top 4 finish. But the big thing is we'd still need within a year or so replace all those players on the books that were/are approaching the end of their top flight careers.
That last reason is why I'd go with BR. Short term he may not finish this season any higher than the squad Kenny would have had if he'd stayed and sat on his hands all summer long. However I do believe that BR has put in place both personnel and a system of play that hopefully is spreading throughout the club, that will put us in good stead for years to come. Sterling may have emerged whoever was the manager, he's that good, but players like Suso, Allen, Assaidi and Sahan (assuming we get to keep him) would not be part of the equation, and its players like that, who could be with the club for many years, who will decide how successful we'll be, rather than the likes of Maxi, Bellamy or Kuyt.
On the squad players, here are a few that didn't make the list I sent earlier ... Hyypia, Babel, Benayoun, Pennant, Lucas, Keane, Dossena, Agger. Again, I think that compares pretty well.
As for the league positions here they are ...
2004/5 - 5th* (58pts) *Qualified for CL due to winning it
2005/6 - 3rd (82pts)
2006/7 - 3rd (68pts)
2007/8 - 4th (76pts)
2008/9 - 2nd (86pts)
2009/10 - 7th (63pts)
So, pretty impressive in every year with the exception of the last when the money dried up (remember Kyrgiakos as our major signing) and the owners were at war.
Just to be contraversial back, could you list our finishing positions since he left?
Finally, you missed of one question I posed. If Rafa was that bad then how come so many of our first team players today are Rafa signings? We've been through three managers and hundreds of millions of pounds since then.
I don't think it's quite fair to compare the two to be honest because financially we are miles away from where we were at that time.
It was a good side and yes it's probably better than what we have now. Indeed we did have duds a plenty which is where our discussion gets interesting. Name a typical Rafa bench from that year and you'll see that the quality really drops off.
My issue with duds is that, yes every club has them but ours were truly spectacular. Having made a mess of it once we then went and did it again, and again and again.
Let's swear a bit. United had Veron, We've had Morientes, Aquilani, Keane, Carroll and Cole to quote some expensive howlers. However, we also had the likes of Voronin x30 who hardly played but were extremely well paid. Jovanovic was another. It was simply a very poorly balanced squad and expensive to maintain and thin on quality.
I do agree that we've done just as badly since which is why I'm calling for change. We need to buy players that Rodgers knows will work, no more here's good player, make it work. Better to take a decent player that fits and make him brilliant if possible.
Just to be a little contraversial can you list out our final league position under Rafa year after year?
Hey Noo Noo
Thanks for coming back. I can see now that on a couple of points you were refering to behind the scenes stuff and I can completely agree with you on those.
There are a few things that'll I'll pass on so that we both don't spend the rest of the day typing! There are a couple of points I'd draw out ...
4. If things were as you say/remember under Rafa then how do you explain his success?
In terms of games played this appears to be his 1st team of the 08/09 season (dodgy internet source!) - Reina, Arbeloa, Carragher, Skrtel, Aurelio, Mascherano, Alonso, Kuyt, Gerrard, Riera, Torres. I won't list the back ups for the sake of brevity.
It's not bad is it? A few years and a couple of hundred million later, how many of our first team would get into that side? Has our squad improved or gone backwards since he left?
I remember when the discussion was all about how Kuyt was a donkey and the weak link - now we're all saying what a miss his goals are this season. Rafa wasn't that bad after all.
7. Everyone who has a few years of managing a club with ambition has duds in their locker (even the best - ask Utd fans). My point was that Rafa's transfer record is still thrown at him where a simple look at the facts (damn, I used the 'F' word) shows that he was pretty successful. As I said, how many of BR's first choice are Rafa players?
Answers are getting a bit long for this type of forum but I'll have a go.
1. Yes there was some structure to what Rafa was doing after all that's what he's all about. Players like chess pieces etc. but there were certainly other issues that eventaully lead him to having a hissy fit and demanding full control of football matters. Before that and even afterwards evryone was doing their own thing it seemed.
2. Allen definitely worth his fee. Borini jury still out
3. I think we need to get ourselves up to date and while not giving ourselves a new identity, we need one that reflects the current market. We are miles behind United and even City in the way we deal with the press and marketing etc. Yes keep the LFC values etc. but modernise the way we do business and make sure the first team and manager are part and reflect that.
4. Rafa's squads had huge holes in them. Injuries hurt us hard and Colin's plan B was never in existence. We had a raft of players that simply never played. Look at the contributions of players this season. We've used a few and they all have roles and are beginning to understand them. Yes it was Rafa's approach too but he somehow (for me) never achieved the squad building exercise properly.
5. yes it is a cynical as that. Money. You can sell younger payers for far more money than you can a 34 year old. We've lost Kuyt, Bellamy and Maxi for £1m this Summer. A younger squad will grow together and may change less than an older one. Lots of pros to a younger team
6. I certainly hope not and if we get our house in order properly there's no reason why we should either.
7. I'm not going to bite. This post is long enough already ;o) However I will say that from Benites' first day through to last Summer we have been awful (at times) in the transfer market. Yes there have been gems but there are so many duds across everyone in the hot seat.
8. My revolution also includes everything we don't see on the pitch. We don't earn the money we do. Business wise inteh trasfer market and elsewhere we are poor. The clubs communications and press strategy is poor. Yes keep things in house but they need to be told something. I'm staying that the club has needed a complete overhaul right through. It's not just me saying this it was discussed in depth on a couple of radio programmes some time ago. having listened to them I agreed with what they were saying in the end. No solutions, just saying what the problems were.
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