Liverpool Message Board
I don't remember being as disappointed as this in the last few years, a real chance to show we are on the up, improving, getting close to being a real team. We are not. I'd like to know what everyone else thinks.
This had banana skin all over it, Villa had been in good form and looked perfectly setup to counter attack against us. We looked sharp in the first half hour and Villa looked a mess but again a plethora of missed chances gives the opposition hope of staying in a game. It was hugely dissapointing as I thought we can make a real move of intent up the table but for all the huffing and puffing, BR can't magic up goal scorers. I thought downing at left back was going to be the weak link but he was one of our best players, we were a victim of our complete opposites. Villa fight like dogs as a unit and are looking pretty efficient in taking chances, just not what the doctor ordered.
I am afraid it could be a similar story with fulham although we won't have any complacency this time around. It seems to take us 30 chances to score a goal and I don't think the manager can be blamed too much for that to be honest, if his team are dominating possesion and creating chances then surely it is the bluntness of the tools that are causing the trouble. So much pressure is already resting at the feet of the January signings, I can't help but feel whoever comes in is going to dissapoint as well because they are going to be expected to score every game!
- 2 Replies to Hobitez
We've been cursed I tell you, cursed.
Blame the Benitez. He put some Spanish hoodoo on the club during his bitter board room battles. We haven't been a free scoring side since that day.
Seriously though it's diffiult to pinpoint exactly but there certainly needs to be some kicks in the back side and fresh blood.
To be honest, this result did not shock me.
Villa played well against an inform Norwich(away) and held their own against the thugs of Stoke. Their Kids are battling.
Henderson should have started, the kid is starting to be more authoritive around the pitch.
Villa had a solid middle and def, three mid and three centre halfs. Nothing wa going to get though. Suarez has to keep dropping short to receive the ball.
Supply from wide, Stirling is looking tired, needs a break. Downing did ok but attacking had a nose bleed even thinking about getting the defender to commit, gutless player.
Allen for me had an absolute disaster.
Physically weak, no determination. He could have prevented all three goals when moves were started in midfield, no urgency in pressing.
Allen only made two forward passes in the whole game, passes that bypass the villa midfield, one got though to Stevie but the second was to Joe Cole which lead to the third Villa Goal.
In the West Ham game, Allen dribbled and got though to the 18 yd box could have shot by using the defender in front of him as a blind spot to the West Ham Goalie but for some unknown reason he had a nose bleed, and passed the responsibility on to to Stirling from only 2 yards. Joke.
Allen and Downing for me are GUTLESS individuals, people that you would not take in to a battle with you or ask to cover your back. BR Please get rid. At least Joe Cole showed some fight when he lost the ball and clattered Bentenke to win possission.
Quastion to all, Is Stevie G losing his roar, in the past he would tell a team mate off or keep taking and controlling the mid.????
Had the Reds banged in one of their many early chances this match might have been far different. Same old story.....all the pressure....but no one finishes. Its beyond frustrating.
Sorry mate , got no answers. Better result next time.
- 1 Reply to oscar
Ron J...a few days ago BR was telling the world we should be aiming for 2nd spot and usurping Man C. in Prem ? Today hes back to talking down all expectations of any kind of a successful season ...do u think its possible hes receiving his scripts on a direct fax line from ....FSG in Boston ? Im fed up of his talk of this mythical future that we are slowly rebuilding for. My advice to him and the owners is stop pussyfooting around admit u mistakes u f++++d up in the transfer window letting Andy C go out on LOAN ? AND COMPOUNDED THE ERROR BY NOT REPLACING HIM. So...now show us all u believe in this club break the bank take a leaf out of Abramovitchs book and go for INSTANT SUCCESS and bring in Cavani get rid of all the bloody dead legs on the books sell off any not putting in MAXIMUM EFFORT between now and the end of transfer window in Jan. Joe Coles salary alone is half what wed have to pay Cavani ...come on FSG back BR to the hilt just like u did Kenny and if we are still then struggling in lower half of table end of season...SACK HIM and get somebody in who is proven to be up to the job.... GUS HIDINK ?
- 1 Reply to RonJ
RON J...AGREE MATE...thats ticki taca for u. Sideways backwards its like that movie "Back to the Future" maybe we should title it "Back to Benitez"....? I still think Kenny should have been given another season dont u ? I dont spose theres enough support out there to start a BRING BACK KENNY!!! movement ?
To be honest I don't see things as bad as many of you do. Yes it was a terrible result, but I think some of the analysis here is a bit over the top compared to what I saw. My biggest disappointment is not technically how we played, individual performances, or the shape of the team, but that we had not turned the corner as I thought we had last week in terms of believing we can come back if we just stick to our guns.
First half hour or so I think we played as well as we have all year, but as we've done all season without putting the ball in the net. I mean lets be fair, the first Villa goal was completely against the run of play and the first chance Villa had created from open play (they had a couple weak headers from a corner and a free kick before that). We had completely dominated them, and it was not just a question of when we'd score, but how many we'd get, so overcoming a one goal deficit did not seem much of a task to me.
But the second was a gut blow. Got to give Villa credit it was a piece of class football. Up until then I think we'd played very well, but after that our heads went down, the football became more direct, resulting in us giving the ball away way to easily.
For those who are critical of the so called tiki taki football, and want a more direct style, and point to this result as proof we need to be more direct to score, I'd say you've got thing upside down. First half Downing was effective getting forward and cutting inside. Most our chances were the creation of short passes between Stevie, Suarez and Sterling. But second half our passes got longer, and often straight down the middle. Result Villa got bodies in the way and pumped the ball back out.
So my critic is that heads went down, and we defended awfully for the 3rd Villa goal, but most of all that we did not have the courage to stick to what we know works. It may take us more chances than most teams to score, but then again we create many more chances than most clubs. But second half we quit on the formula and just tried to pump balls into the box either from the back or from the flanks, and then wonder why we did not score, when we hardly created a decent scoring opportunity.
- 1 Reply to dsteer_lfc_68
I agree with some of that but would point out that we shouldn't make the mistake of confusing hopeful shots with chances. I know that sounds odd but what I mean is a lot of our "chances" against Villa were hopeful efforts through a crowd. To me, Villa created far more clear cut chances than we did on the day and therefore were the more effective team and fully deserved the win.
Some will argue that we underperformed, some will argue that BR hasn't got the tactics right, some will argue that we don't have good enough players. My guess is that it's a little bit of all of those.
Both but what if you don't have the right knife to cut the turkey? You'll make a hash of it no matter how skillful a butcher you are.
Rodgers can only use the knives he's been given.
Firtsly their genarlly quite blunt and secondly there's not enough of them.
If things are bad come March then perhaps your point becomes more valid.
"it seemed you put the emphasis on the result when it was poor, but then talked about the performances when the result went our way"
Firstly, that is factually wrong. I talked about our performance against Villa being poor which was matched by the result.
Secondly, the only reason I talked about performance is because you said that you think we were playing much better in November than we were in September and were using that to justify your "definite steps forward" statement. To counter that, I pointed out that in my opinion we haven't been performing well of late. As I posted above, "for me, the only factual evidence that matters are the results" and they haven't been good enough so far (although there are many games to go) - or do you disagree with that last statement?
I have a different view to you Dave and engage in posts with you and others to try and understand your point of view and to see if I can learn something from it. I'm not interested in picking & choosing facts to suit any particular argument. I want BR and my football club to succeed and I hope very much that they do. It's just that I keep hearing and reading how great things are at Liverpool and then I watch them play game after game (admittedly mostly on a dodgy Internet feed from France these days) and look at the table and I can't understand the hype. I've been a fan of the club for almost 40 years and, until a couple of years back, was a regular attendee home and away. I'd rather trust the evidence of my own eyes than listen to statistics about possession or pundits going on about how BR speaks very well about the game.
In Kenny's first full season, he won our first trophy for a number of years, got to another final and was sacked for finishing 7th without Suarez and Gerrard in many of the games. The performance level of the team last year was every bit as good, every bit as exciting as the performance level this season. After almost half the season we are stuck in 12th, only 7 points off first place but also only 7 points off relegation. Tell me again, where the "definite steps forward" this season are?
ps. I write this full in the knowledge that we have 4/5 "winnable" games coming up.
Sorry I see where you're going. I have a very critical view on Gerrard which many may disagree with. It's probably very contraversial at the very least.
Firstly how many goals have we conceded this year from a sloppy pass in midfield, where we are completely ut open by a lack of midfield cover and wandering full backs? Several I'd say.
Gerrard has often been the midfield culprit in my book being guilty of a sloppy pass and being out of position. In my opinion Benitez realised his wandering tendancies and did two things to counter it.
1. he stuck him on the right where he would be forced to control himself
2, He took him out of teh defensive equation all together and played him behind the lone striker.
Both worked very well as Gerrard was given the license to impact on the game.
Also I believe that Gerrard is an extremely difficult player to work with (on the pitch). Lampard couldn't work with him and Benayoun was the same> Seldon did we see the two on the pitch at the same time and I believe that's one reason why. Injuries and Benitez's defensive tendancies were the others but when they did play you could see them trying occupy the space.
The 3 man midfield as demands a disciplined approach which we haven't quite got yet. It also needs to be fluid enough to allow the short passing game. See Barcelona. Their movement is short and quick. Gerrards is longer.
Should Rodgers employ as system that works for Gerrard? Not really because Gerrard is one thing - flexible. He can adapt his game on top of his ability to win a game single handed. His recent England perfromances show how he can curb his game.
I also think that when you look at where we are then a complete restart / reboot becomes sensible. We were such a mess that it makes perfect sense to pull everything togather and basically change the whole way the club does things. It makes sense while you're at the bottom of the cycle, not at the top. Barcelona did it and look at them now.
Hi Noo Noo
That's fair enough although I would point out a few things ...
You mention the number of goals conceded through having no cover and full backs flying forward but then blame this on a bad pass (by Gerrard in your example but others are as guilty in my opinion). Players won't get every pass right, especially if they are trying to affect the game with a more incisive pass, so I would argue that the system is more to blame for not dealing with the consequences of that.
You argue that there is no need to adapt the system as Gerrard is capable of adapting but seem to have suggested that Gerrard is struggling to adapt in your first post - am I understanding that right?
You compare us to Barca. I'd point out that Barca have been building their system for 20 years and have spent plenty of money bringing in players to play that system (including some 'plan B' players). It's only relatively recently that many of the home-grown players have evolved. My point is that Barca didn't try and do it on a budget overnight.
I still feel that the managers job is both short and long term. Usually, if you don't get the short term right, the long term becomes irrelevant as you won't be around to implement it.
Hi Noo Noo
I'm not sure if I misunderstood your reply.
You posted an opinion that SG was suffering in BR's system. I asked if it is the job of a manager to create a system to get the best out of the players at his disposal (the knives in your analogy) or whether he should play the system he prefers regardless.
You seem to be suggesting he does both but I think they are two mutually exclusive options unless you already have the players effective at playing BR's system (which your opening post suggested we didn't).
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