Liverpool Message Board
Robert there is no word games going on, it’s clearly stated on the first post I placed on this thread:
Now if you miss read, or misunderstood what I wrote I accept your apology. I think I'll leave it there, as arguing over what you insist I meant rather than what I actually wrote seems a little pedantic.
For what it's worth, I can't promise or guarantee they won't change the course, but if you sit back, take the actual on the pitch/results aspect out of it, and view the rest of everything done, it's clear to see there are measures and procedures taking place, and Rodgers is on board as well as a big part of enforcing them.. I think that's fair to say everyone should be able to see, whether they like it or accept is another story..
As for Kenny, per Henry and Kenny himself, and I'm not sure this info or commentary ever made it's way over there, the answer to him being a long term solution is, absolutely not. He was given a three year deal because of a fantastic revolution he had, and then everyone wanting him to return, so a 3 year deal is about standard, but he accepted and agreed to it with the notion they'd be searching for a younger, long term successor, and at which point, unless he was winning the prem and going far in the CL, he would step aside after the 3 years..
Sadly, the players and performance did not work, and he got the hook sooner, but he was never intended for the long term unless he achieved incredible heights, which would have had everyone, on all front ecstatic. Unfortunately the fees/wages paid in addition to the performance of most of the players was unacceptable, and just like some think Rodgers should assume all responsibility for every single thing that happens, then it should be understood that Kenny had to bear that same responsibility at the time as well.. It only made for a fair and consistent view..
I think things are looking better rather than worse, though we're not where we want to, or need to be, but imo, I see things pointing to the right direction while including the plan of the things they wanted implemented, wage reduction, selling dead wood, bringing in young/talented players, and introducing youth.. Those factors are black and white, plain to see.. we just need the performances and consistency to start increasing..
So, to end it, let's hope for a big 3 pts vs QPR and on to bigger and better things in 2013. Happy New Years to you too! Cheers
Now you're playing word games. You introduced the claim of empirical measurement and have used the words empirical and measure[*] a number of times in a number of posts to more than one person. You phrased it to PS as "something I can empirically measure".
The whole tone of it was "I can see progress and I have empirical measurements to justify this." You wanted to sound authoritative (which you are good at). So I asked what these empirical measurements were and you've wriggled around ever since.
Empirical measurement is not looking at something and making a value judgement, which is what you are trying to turn it into. It's making measurements, producing numbers, comparing statistically one thing with another. You implied you had this for possession and scoring chances, which would be perfectly possible, and interesting. But when pressed the only empirical measurement you came up with was that at the halfway point this season you're six points worse off than last season. That's interesting too, but it refutes rather than supports your case.
Admit to yourself, even if you won't to me, you overcooked your claim. You had no business claiming empirical measurement when all it boiled down to was, I paraphrase, I've watched a lot of matches and it seems to me we're getting better. The problem in this argument has not been my reading precision, it's been your writing precision.
Thanks for the reply.
For what it's worth, I hope you're right and that they are prepared to back him both with time and money. I'm not as convinced as you that they will though (after all, didn't they view Kenny as a long term option having invested millions with him in charge?).
Fingers crossed for a much better 2013 - even if progress is slow.
Happy New Year.
For me, finish 8th is never acceptable, nor anything I would want to strive for.. So, that said, I thought last season was absolutely unbearable, particularly as we floundered and flopped like a dead animal, limping to the finish line, lucky to be 8th at best.
So, that said, if asking me if it would be ok or seen as progress or failure under BR, my answer would be no, it's not ok, no it's not progress, but no, it's not failure and under the pretense that the owners, at least from my knowledge of them and understanding, view him as a long term answer with a vision and a much bigger job, than just where he finishes his first year. Bearing in mind, something like 14th or 15th, would be a different story..
There is a much larger picture, and I think everyone knows it, whether or not they choose to accept it, is another story, and it's like the old saying you can't have your cake and eat it too..
The club has been run poorly for years, we've been financially irresponsible as far as overpaying for underperforming players, and perhaps as guilty as it gets for overpaying in wages.
Taking that into consideration, this is all information that was given to Rodgers on a plate, in addition to the finances he would be provided, and what he'd have to accomplish off the pitch, while being the manager and achieving things on the pitch.
So, again, 8th isn't good enough ever, but if we end up with more wins, more points, more goals, more clean sheets, more new/youth players introduced and better home results, but still manage to finish 8th perhaps only because of 2-3 teams gaining a point or two more, then based on what I've said above, and the owners plan (as I understand it), then it will be considered a job done, with a much more clear vision/path going into the following season. And, after saying all this, with whoever Rodgers adds, and as the team improves and becomes more consistent, I see no reason why we can't aim much higher, and achieve that.. it's early yet, and we control our own future, the players/team that is..
As for the Cups, I don't mean to minimize them or discredit them because I was very excited, and I know Arsenal fans are embarassed about their lack thereof, but again, the finishing in top 4 and progressing/competing in the Champions League gives MILLIONS of dollars, which are what would help the owners feel more comfortable making bigger purchases. After seeing what they spent, or was allowed to be spent, and for that to be the only thing to bank on (which took a late comeback and pks), wasn't good enough.
BUT, Rodgers will not be held to that standard. I don't know them personally, but I'm extremely confident that this is the plan, set in stone. Put it this way, barring a disastrous finish, even finishing 10th, while not saying they accept it, I'd be stunned if Rodgers didn't return.. Stunned isn't even the word and I'm just basing it solely off how they've done things here, and they were none to popular with Red Sox faithful in the beginning either.. 13 years, 2 championships later and surpassing the Yankees in revenues, that mood has changed..
Robert you really need to read more closely before going off the handle, or maybe ask Father Christmas for a late gift in the form of a Collins pocket dictionary.
I said "measured" not "measurable".
Measured: slow, stately, or leisurely carefully considered; deliberate.
So for the last time, I see empirical evidence (evidence I've observed over the course of the season so far (which you admittedly have not observed)) of measured (slow, stately) progress.
Thanks for the reply.
I understand your point about waiting until the end of the season before you assess things.
My only point is that I don't see the progress that some people (I'm not sure if you are one of them or not) see. I'm not suggesting for one moment that BR should be sacked but then, I don't think too many other Liverpool fans are either. Equally, I think it's fair to say that I expected to be doing better than where we are at this moment in time - did you not?
ps. as for the cups, I have to disagree. I remember the cup successes far more than I remember league position finishes. Of course league position is financially important but you shouldn't belittle the achievement of winning something - ask Arsenal fans about it.
Finally, given your post, am I right in thinking that if come the end of the season we finish in 8th place or less with no cups that you'll feel we've gone backwards? If so, will that be any more or less acceptable than Kenny's last season?
I do that because others seem to only compare his first half to the first half of last year, which to be completely honest, is just so conveniently ignoring the absolutely abysmal, dreadful, horrific and relegation form we showed in the second half, with absolutely no signs that the players bought, the system, or a summer with not many additions would have led to much better, also considering Kuyt, Maxi and Bellamy may have left regardless who was manager for each of their individual reasons..
Yes, we were in 2 cup competitions and that had an impact, but John Henry said winning both, would not have been enough, so his view was clearly on the league, and anyone here, no matter how much they enjoyed the Carling Cup that day, or a few days after, would have swapped it in for a top 4 finish without thinking twice..
Furthermore, Cups are an accolade or an award, they are not progress.. In the movie "Meet the Fockers" with Ben Stiller and Deniro, Deniro sees a wall at Greg (Stiller's) parents' house with trophies/medals, and Deniro says "Oh I didn't know they gave 9th place ribbons" ... Comedy at it's finest and quite a bit of irony.. So we got a cup for the trophy room, which was easily forgotten as we wanted to the season to end, and a distant memory at this point, all the while having added a ridiculous amount of expensive new players and falling to 8th from 6th, only earning Europa (irony again) as an accolade for winning the cup, otherwise we'd be without further finances, and Rodgers job perhaps much easier this 1st term..
Pompey won an FA Cup, so if someone could enlighten me as to the progress they've made since then, I would be over the moon. We were in 2 cups, and our progress was very evident, it went backwards to the tune of 1 home win..
If everyone wants to compare 1st half to 1st half, then that's fine, because after QPR, that will be over and done with and we could be perhaps in 7th, whereas we were 5th maybe? So, the detractors to my 1st half vs 2nd half comparison, have very little room anymore.. 2 places (potentially) and being in 1 more cup competition.
Also, everyone also seems to conveniently forget, there was NO EUROPEAN FOOTBALL last season..
Rodgers has had to juggle more players and more matches, with fewer days and fewer options, over this first half, than Kenny did last year in his first half..
If we'd been playing in Europa last season, without predicting the future, I could almost guarantee we'd not had progressed as far in the Carling Cup, considering we had to go to Chelsea and to City, playing them twice, while balancing the league and the European Thursday night fixtures..
All that, while having a deeper squad..
So, all can feel free to say Rodgers is failing to meet 1st half to 1st half, and that's fine, but after this weekend, that's over with, so I suppose if I'm being both brutally honest and sarcastic, all he needs to do really is finish better than 18th, with 2 home wins, and 6 home wins..
Just a small correction ...
The supporters didn't hound out Rafa (in spite of what you might infer from posts on this board) - the then owners sacked him.
We've not been improved as a team since and many of our first team players were signed by the guy. I wonder when we'll next take CL qualification as a given at the start of a season?
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