Liverpool Message Board
Because not only did we not get a result, but we lost at Stoke. So, in keeping true to form, Stoke have not been beaten at the Britannia in 16 matches, and those previous 15 teams who did not win there, all sacked their managers too, so we should do the same, despite last week's performance and a good overall patch of form..
This would also only make logical sense after beating Fulham 4-0, which was our biggest goal differential in league play in all of last season and this, and with 4 different scorers, Suarez only getting on the mark in stoppage time.
We'd also been in the top of the form table with 2 losses in 13 matches..
BUT, with the possibility of perhaps picking up 6 points vs QPR and then Sunderland, along with the addition of 2-3 new faces, maybe we can reconsider? Bahhh, what am I thinking...!
I do agree with the fickle, his job status, and evaluation should be maintained on a week to week basis, not on a body of work over any extended period of time, and we should just change managers every other month based on how they do in 4-5 matches.
I shutter to think what might happen if we can claim (and I try to never think further than 1 result at a time) 6/6 vs QPR and Sunderland, getting within a touching distance of top 4, but then faulter at relegation battlers Manchester United at Old Trafford, even if god forbid it's a 1 goal game or late winner..
Start dusting off and polishing up those CVs, along with the very lengthy list of MASSIVE names of those in line for the job, and job needed to be done.. Don't be offended if you're passed over by Cryuff or Guardiola, since they've been in line since early June..
I think I'd agree with you and Jason here that the squad overall is weaker (or thinner) than last season, but not sure I'd pin that on the manager as a number of top players left of their own accord not the managers design. And while no one can argue we had a perfect transfer window, I think those players that are now part of the squad either from the window or from the youth set up, while right now they may not be as strong as last term, I do think they represent a lot more upside over the next 2-3 years, which I think is the window in which BR will be judged.
From first half last term compared to first half this term it’s fair to say results have been worse, but it would also ignore the second half of last term, when we were decidedly worse off from both the first half of last season and this, and with supposedly better players. I know we lost Suarez for a chunk of games, and Gerrard also (but he also missed quite a bit of the first half last term also) but with the likes of Kuyt, Maxi, and Bellars we had players who should have chipped in on the goal front to make up the difference, but overall we just hit the post.
So to me it’s more like a rollercoaster, steady downward decline in Rafa's last season, followed by deep dip under Roy, a bit of a climb back under KD, then a slip back in his last 6 months with the club. And so far under BR, while not a clear upward rise game after game for sure, I do think the last 6 months have been an improvement on the 6 months prior to that, and therefore I don't see anything that would suggest he's getting things wrong, or we could slip back.
But end of the day, faith in the manager is exactly that, faith, or belief. I believe we'll win against Sunderland on Wednesday, but I don't know for sure we will. But because I believe it, I go in with that attitude in how I support. Same then goes for the manager; I believe he'll make us better. He's not perfect, I think he'll make mistakes along the way, but I think he's put us on the right path. At least that is what I hope.
Happy New year to you PS. YNWA
I'll just keep this one shorter because I do understand, and appreciate what you're asking and trying to say, and I think you more or less do in my case vice versa.. That said, I'm not trying to cherry pick, to be fair, everything I've come up with as far as comparisons and good points, you've shot down and countered with, so I guess I'm out of ammo really.. What I'm not trying to do, and I think you know that is just wildly and blindly support the guy..
I don't know if he's going to be the long term answer, nobody can know that, and that's a dilemma for any club and any opening that ever exists. No owner, regardless of size of the club, wants to be changing managers all the time, it's a headache and expensive. I do know, and it's a pretty valid point, if he's not given the time he said he needed, to implement his vision/plan, and implement their goals and picture, then we'll never know.
The task at hand, and this is from my understanding having heard many interviews with John Henry that I'm not sure have all made their over to your side, was monumental. Basically remove all of last summer's buys, or figure out how to get the very best from them, clear out other players on crazy salaries, promote some youth because we have a highly touted youth program, and start bringing in young, talented players that will not only produce product, but fit a vision and be long term players, perhaps stars.. Since there's no director of football, which we had, and many other clubs do, City, Utd, Chelsea etc etc... Rodgers is ultimately charged and wanted these tasks, and Ayre, just signs the checks..
To quickly go back on Kenny and Clarke (who stepped down on his own), if Henry said to him, he wanted all of the above done this season, do we think he'd taken that kindly to it or accepted that as a requirement to keep the job? It would have been insulting to say, hey, you bought Adam, Downing, Carroll etc, and we want them all gone now and you won't get very much else to replace them with.. He was also quite reluctant to play Sterling (rumored to want to leave for Spurs), Suso not mentioned, Wisdom who, ..
So, I guess to put a pause on this, again, I don't know, but personally based on my own opinions of him, I wanted to see what he could do with great players, which he has a few of, but not enough, and what it may result in. That can't happen in 5 months, probably not in 1 first season, so we may honestly be wondering next October too, but barring the unthinkable, the impression given is that he will absolutely still be here. That's per FSG, not me.. If he goes sooner I'd be shocked, but if it's deserved, then so be it and I'll hopefully support that person too..
Sadly, it's not an answer any of us like, but "Time will tell"..
There's a lot there that I want to respond to so I'll try and be as brief as possible.
On "who else was there" - firstly, I don't think any of us know for sure. If the brief was "cut-costs and swallow it" then maybe not many top managers. But surely the point is that FSG didn't have to put themselves in that position. We had just won our first trophy for years and were 1 season into a "3 season plan". If the current manager is the best of a bad lot as you seem to be suggesting, then maybe FSG should have stuck with Kenny?
On the "we were 15th but now 9th and improving". Haven't you argued in the recent past that you have to measure progress over a full season? If so, how can you cherry-pick a recent climb up the table as evidence of progress. Don't you have to wait until the end of the season for that? Also whilst climbing from 15th to 9th could fairly be seen as improving on our worst start to a season in years, is it evidence of a step forward from last season or evidence that BR is a management genius?
On the "West Brom, Swans & Everton are up there". We have played all three in the league and have 2pts out of a possible 9 so they are above us on merit. If West Brom & Swansea (along with some others) are above us in the league, does that not blow a hole in the "BR had nothing to work with" argument that I have seen on this board? Indeed, the fact that Laudrup and Clarke could both have been attracted to take the job at Liverpool, does that not blow the "no other manager could have done a better job than BR" out of the water?
On the "is it right to sack him" - no, I don't think it would be the way forward either.
Finally, on Dave's point, I refer you to my reply to him. I don't accept the premise that we have improved which is what my posts have all been about. I keep asking for someone - anyone - to point out why they are so sure we have improved over last season. The longer it goes, the more I think that the answer is that we haven't but we may yet do so - would that be fair?
I don't agree that the overall direction is upward. I think we are a poorer team than last year with poorer results. At best I think we are standing still, but I actually think we have slipped slightly backwards.
That said, BR is one half-season into the 2 season timescale that I think you should give managers so I'm not suggesting getting rid.
Let's hope that 2013 shows some steps forward that no-one (even me!) can disagree over!
Happy New Year
Short form, Dave asks a good question, though the obvious reservations exist.
Fyi - I don't think/mind you having a go, I think it's actually good conversation and talking points, plus I don't think we're that far apart.. There seems to be widespread drug and alcohol abuse from Armchair's stash, passed around seeing another thread and some comments.. Rodgers is actually dictating results to benefit Swans.. brilliant!.. They're paying him secretly too.. That is blasphemy and lunacy at it's finest.
I don't have a raving backing for BR, I've had some disagreements & reservations, but FSG made it clear, that when Kenny went, the next would be a young, bright minded, focussed on a specific philosphy, and long term.. So on those guidelines, he was their man. He actually turned us down originally, as did Martinez, as did Michael Laudrup, as did Jurgen Klopp.. So who else was there, in addition to a very non appealing overall project to inherit? I liked Laudrup and Rodgers dead level.. I thought BR did fantastic w/ Swans, so I envisioned, after time, what he might do at LFC with bigger and better players..
Yes, right now I think the squad is weaker, but moreso, thinner.. Now, looking how we started, 1 pt from our opening 4 fixtures, and quite some time in that 15th area.. we're now 9th with a +5 g/d.. So with ups and downs, we've obviously improved in that regard..
In people wanting Kenny to have another year, I find it ironic that Rodgers, by most posters, many more fickle coming out of the woods as of late, not even wanting to see him through the new year.. Is that not a double standard?
Another thing to consider even with another win, we'd not be much higher, and did anyone expect West Brom, Swans and Everton (notorious slow starters) to be up there? All very deserving too, and we got 2 pts from those 3 fixtures..
Anyways, again, to want to sack the guy, who has a winning record, + 5 g/d, and blooding fantastic talents in Sterling, Suso and Shelvey, while getting a hell of alot more from Downing, Enrique and Henderson, while not having Assaidi healthy or acclimated, and no Borini who despite the hatred, was part of the plans, and may have 2-3goals, all before adding Sturridge and hopefully Ince, is not fair.
Like Dave said, is there that much bad to say he won't get better and the team won't either? Again, I do not like waiting, but it's never going to happen any faster and there's no gaurantee anyone would do much better when also considering cleaning out the dead wood and not having very much money to work with?
I guess based on the majority, not being 4th or 5th by now, is complete failure and he needs to go with __________? waiting to jump on this job? Pep Guardiola perhaps, with 20M to spend? That's of course Armchair talk, and also FSG will sell to Shieks for 1Billion, and we'll have Falcao, Cavani, etc etc..
The 2 things I do know, 1 per the mouth of both the owners and Rodgers (barring a disastrous finish like 14th/5th), he will be here in the summer, and have even mentioned details of money available due to some new endorsements they haven't announced, and a tv deal... And 2, you can't make a long term plan with a short term solution. Changing managers again, especially now, unless a Guardiola, Mourinho, could actually do worse considering they'd like and dislike many players, and would also change the system and perhaps upset existing players, important ones. Outside of Chelsea, changing managers in mid season, is usually teams down in the bottom, just struggling for stability and points to stay up.. we're not really in that mix are we?
End of the day, I find alot more positives, than I do negatives, but I absolutely concede there are plenty.. and room to improve ALOT!
Ps I'm not sure any of us have absolute confidence or faith in BR to tell you that he will succeed for sure. However I've seen enough improvement in performances so far this season that I believe he's got us on the right track. Of course there have been,and there will be more setbacks so long as the overall direction is upward why not have a bit of belief?
Thanks for replying.
All of that is an interesting take on what is going on but I'm not sure how debating that we have a weaker squad now compared to last year (albeit with more potential in your opinion) answers my question.
You seem to be saying that we have a worse squad and therefore worse results. That would be a good debate for someone who wanted BR to get the sack but that's not what I'm saying.
I'm asking for someone to tell me why they are so confident, given BR history before Liverpool and this season, that he is going to be a success. Telling me that we have a worse team than last year but you believe they will be better in the future isn't answering that.
ps. sorry, I'm not having a go at you - I'm just trying to understand the hype from some quarters about BR.
Happy New Year.
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