Liverpool Message Board
Because not only did we not get a result, but we lost at Stoke. So, in keeping true to form, Stoke have not been beaten at the Britannia in 16 matches, and those previous 15 teams who did not win there, all sacked their managers too, so we should do the same, despite last week's performance and a good overall patch of form..
This would also only make logical sense after beating Fulham 4-0, which was our biggest goal differential in league play in all of last season and this, and with 4 different scorers, Suarez only getting on the mark in stoppage time.
We'd also been in the top of the form table with 2 losses in 13 matches..
BUT, with the possibility of perhaps picking up 6 points vs QPR and then Sunderland, along with the addition of 2-3 new faces, maybe we can reconsider? Bahhh, what am I thinking...!
I do agree with the fickle, his job status, and evaluation should be maintained on a week to week basis, not on a body of work over any extended period of time, and we should just change managers every other month based on how they do in 4-5 matches.
I shutter to think what might happen if we can claim (and I try to never think further than 1 result at a time) 6/6 vs QPR and Sunderland, getting within a touching distance of top 4, but then faulter at relegation battlers Manchester United at Old Trafford, even if god forbid it's a 1 goal game or late winner..
Start dusting off and polishing up those CVs, along with the very lengthy list of MASSIVE names of those in line for the job, and job needed to be done.. Don't be offended if you're passed over by Cryuff or Guardiola, since they've been in line since early June..
We may play the prettiest brand of football the world has ever seen but the bottom line is that if we dont put the ball in the back of the net then it has all been in vain. We are all in agreement that Stoke are a hard team to beat, that they play the worst possible football that one would ever hope their team to play, however they are not losing. Our team plays beautifully most of the time but compared to Stoke we are easy beats. I agree with Enrique when he says the team needs a fighting spirit and that can only come from the manager (i.e Brendan), it is his job to instil a fighting mentality within the team. Right now when we go a goal down there is hardly any fighting spirit displayed by the players and when we take the lead we display a vulnerability that suggests we can concede at any time. We had to hang on to 1-0 victories at home against Reading and Southampton with a few nervous moments towards the end of those games. As I said earlier we are never sure which Liverpool team will turn up for any given game. Liverpool is well known for displaying a never say die attitude (Instanbul and Cardiff being prime examples), this current team does not have the fight of the Liverpool that we are used to. Yes they play pretty but they are as fragile as china glass, a 1-0 or even 2-0 lead is not enough to guarantee us a victory whilst a 1-0 deficit always seems like a mountain to climb.
I am not saying Brendan needs to be sacked, I am just saying the buck should stop with him. We have the same number of points now from the same number of games as when Roy got fired but because Brendan has us playing pretty, people ignore that fact. I for one dont see any progress, just a change in the style of play.
- 3 Replies to mel n
I actually don’t disagree with most of that Mel. We do need to show more character in matches, and I'd hoped the WHU match would have been a turning point where we did show some character, but it seems it’s not stuck.
I also do think it’s down to the manager to help create that, but also have to recognize how young the set of players he's working with is, and therefore how hard a task he has on his hands. We’re not talking about many seasoned veterans here, but quite a few kids who need to be taught not to be intimidated. It seems to me they almost always go out believing in themselves, their team mates and the system, hence some of our great starts to games, but are too easily dented if or when things don’t go to plan. But I so have to give some credit, its few times I’ve seen the lads actually stop playing. Even down by 2 at Stoke, and still getting clattered into, they kept going.
But on the progress issue I do have some disagreement. Progress is movement from one place to another. Positive progress assumes moving forward, negative the opposite. We are on or about the same point total now as when Roy was in charge, however you have to take account of where we were coming from before that point.
In hindsight I don't actually put all the blame on Roy (the previous owners I think have major culpability) but he took a team that had just fallen out of the top 4, having finished 6th the previous season, with the expectation that we'd bounce right back, and took us down further in the table. It's hard to argue from the point he began to the point he left us, under his regime we were going in the wrong direction.
For BR he did take over a club that finished 8th, but its second half form was well below that as others have pointed out. Near relegation battlers I believe. Based on that we're well above relegation performance so it could be argued we're moving forward, but the highest we've reached so far is 8th, so maybe the progress is rather stunted.
But for some it comes back to how they define progress, and how much expectations plays into things. If that means not reaching a certain target, and some still have the expectation that not being in the top 4 is failure they will never see progress. However if progress is moving forward from the current position toward a goal, then I think it’s a different matter. I also think it is important to look beyond the raw statistics. They are important as measurements, but other factors can be considered.
If Rafa had not won the CL in 2005 (and some still think he did it with someone else’s side) most would say he took us backward in his first season in charge. Based on pure statistics that would be fair, but he was also building a platform for progress, by bringing in his players, instilling his ideas, and building up things behind the scenes. It’s that platform that got us to Cardiff, and make us think we could take a serious run at the league. Question is does anyone see the same building by BR that may not pay off this season, but will in seasons to come?
Totally agree with you. I said in another thread that this team hardly come from behind to win, capable of losing a good lead, hardly score a late winner, capable of the most unlikely results against the bottom team (recent Villa results make me wonder why we can lose to them?), can hardly get 3 points from any team above us (that's why we are below them).
It is going to be tough struggle. We don't have anyone on the pitch who can rally the rest and shout at each other.
"We have the same number of points now from the same number of games as when Roy got fired"
the other difference is under kenny u seemed to create more & u were so unlucky with the amount of times u hit the woodwork.
but kennys main mistakes were his signings. some very average ones.
I've had enough of the 1 step forward and 2 steps back way of things with Rodgers in charge.
I now see where in the market for Wigan's striker di santo. Whose a crap striker. well not the striker whose gonna raise our fortunes.
I hate to be a wet blanket Jason but the Stoke defeat is not an isolated incident. Two weeks ago we lost 3-1 at home to Aston Villa who since then have lost by an aggregate score of 12-0 to Chelsea and Spurs.
I admire the football that Brendan is trying to implement but the fact remains, his record is the same as when Roy got fired 2 years ago. This team has no character or identity, you never know which Liverpool is going to show up, is it the one that walloped Fulham 4-0 or the dismal one against Stoke. We hardly ever come from behind to win, unless you count the West Ham game where we actually led then let that lead slip. We have been 2-0 up versus City and Everton but still failed to win those games, we could not hold on to that lead at Stoke for more than THREE minutes, we led against M U and still lost, just to quote a few examples. When we go a goal behind the players just seem to wither and hide, there is no confidence that they will come back and even when we are leading, we are always on tenterhooks not sure if we are going to maintain our lead.
Unless this team assumes an identity, then they will continue to be this Jekyll and Hide team and I doubt if we will progress much.
- 1 Reply to mel n
All reasons he needs to be sacked now..
But more seriously, I never like to accept defeat, nor ever say I don't expect to win or play well, but if I'm 100% honest, every year, I see that game @ Stoke, I cringe and I chalk it up as a loss, with a tie best case scenario. I think LFC only have 2 league wins there all I time...
As far as comparing him to Roy, well I couldn't find anything further apart considering we had just been absolutely blasted at Rovers, 3-1, were sitting 13th with a -3 goal differential. Not exactly the same thing, and we had Torres, Meireles, Kuyt and Maxi .. So not only big difference in team standings, but clearly a lost ship with awful tactics going nowhere fast.
For the Mr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde thing, for the overall body of work, yes, I can agree with that as there have been times where I feel I've watched one thing 4 days ago, and something totally different the next. Though, I feel it has tightened up a bit, and while nobody in the world saw that Villa result coming, not by a longshot, let's say it didn't, and perhaps we'd won, that would have been 4 on the spin, and I still think a loss at Stoke..
I think alot of the game, or the way players play does come from managers, but yesterday, when I see Daniel Agger play an absolute shocker, including whatever that was leading to the first goal, where Skrtel ends up alone facing 2 men and the ball and gets bowled over, makes me scratch my head.. The 2nd goal, Stevie is on the post, if that's what you want to call it, but yet a large enough gap for a person to walk through, let alone a header.. And once it was 2-1 that quickly, just like that, at their place, it's all she wrote..
I don't really recall anything meaningful from Gerrard in the midfield, nor any physical or composed play from Lucas, or the aggressive physical nature we've come to see from Shelvey, and we're not going to get that from Suarez/Suso/Downing up front, so I don't really know what else to say because, Sterling and others weren't really much better as far as difference makers in this one..
He's said over and over he feels the squad is too thin, and it's the truth, on top of laden with youth, that we rely on heavily, and always likely to struggle in this type of game.. I don't even know where a comeback for 2 goals would have come from without a Suarez magical miracle..
Bottom line, while no, this is not good enough, and I can't stomach games and results like that, the squad is still being overhauled, still needs additions, and is still young/transitioning.
If they put out that type of performance vs QPR and home to Sunderland, then I think we'll have a serious problem and very good cause for concern, but I remain the optimist, and don't expect either as well as looking forward to the additions we're expecting to see..
End of the day, all this stuff (squad being thin aside) about the character and results does fall on the manager, but to have a feisty experience player like Agger have such a nightmare, and then to see Enrique come out after the fact and say he and his teammates need to show more strength and character, shows that some who actually put on the uniform and kick the ball, need to not just stop talking about it, especially after the fact, but go out and do it, and do it consistently..
Sorry to be picky, but we led City 1-0, then 2-1, undone by a terrible 1 off by Skrtel, and yes blew 2-0 to Everton, but scored an incorrectly ruled offsides winner.. It is "what if" talk, but, the irony and truth is, "if" .. people are singing praises rather than down in the dumps..
Sorry - I'm sure this is me being dense - but I'm not clear what point you are making.
Firstly, I don't think many thought that 4th was a minimum last year other than those that really matter - the owners.
On the bench - are you saying that we have improved as a squad or got worse? We have certainly gotten younger.
Agree with the last sentiment.
Thanks for replying.
All of that is an interesting take on what is going on but I'm not sure how debating that we have a weaker squad now compared to last year (albeit with more potential in your opinion) answers my question.
You seem to be saying that we have a worse squad and therefore worse results. That would be a good debate for someone who wanted BR to get the sack but that's not what I'm saying.
I'm asking for someone to tell me why they are so confident, given BR history before Liverpool and this season, that he is going to be a success. Telling me that we have a worse team than last year but you believe they will be better in the future isn't answering that.
ps. sorry, I'm not having a go at you - I'm just trying to understand the hype from some quarters about BR.
Happy New Year.
There's a lot there that I want to respond to so I'll try and be as brief as possible.
On "who else was there" - firstly, I don't think any of us know for sure. If the brief was "cut-costs and swallow it" then maybe not many top managers. But surely the point is that FSG didn't have to put themselves in that position. We had just won our first trophy for years and were 1 season into a "3 season plan". If the current manager is the best of a bad lot as you seem to be suggesting, then maybe FSG should have stuck with Kenny?
On the "we were 15th but now 9th and improving". Haven't you argued in the recent past that you have to measure progress over a full season? If so, how can you cherry-pick a recent climb up the table as evidence of progress. Don't you have to wait until the end of the season for that? Also whilst climbing from 15th to 9th could fairly be seen as improving on our worst start to a season in years, is it evidence of a step forward from last season or evidence that BR is a management genius?
On the "West Brom, Swans & Everton are up there". We have played all three in the league and have 2pts out of a possible 9 so they are above us on merit. If West Brom & Swansea (along with some others) are above us in the league, does that not blow a hole in the "BR had nothing to work with" argument that I have seen on this board? Indeed, the fact that Laudrup and Clarke could both have been attracted to take the job at Liverpool, does that not blow the "no other manager could have done a better job than BR" out of the water?
On the "is it right to sack him" - no, I don't think it would be the way forward either.
Finally, on Dave's point, I refer you to my reply to him. I don't accept the premise that we have improved which is what my posts have all been about. I keep asking for someone - anyone - to point out why they are so sure we have improved over last season. The longer it goes, the more I think that the answer is that we haven't but we may yet do so - would that be fair?
I don't agree that the overall direction is upward. I think we are a poorer team than last year with poorer results. At best I think we are standing still, but I actually think we have slipped slightly backwards.
That said, BR is one half-season into the 2 season timescale that I think you should give managers so I'm not suggesting getting rid.
Let's hope that 2013 shows some steps forward that no-one (even me!) can disagree over!
Happy New Year
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