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  • Hobitez Hobitez Jan 29, 2013 09:58 Flag

    How do you measure progress and what is acceptable?

    I know we all want a top 4 finish and we know that is the target but I wonder what everyone would deem a succesful season and what they would consider progress.

    For me, at the start of the season after we let Kuyt, Carroll, Maxi, Bellamy,Aquilani and Adam go without bringing in the reinforcements I knew it was a hiding to nothing year. The bravery of BR to bring Sterling, Suso, Wisdom and co into the fold guaranteed patience in my eyes whilst bringing in some young signings to replace the old guard. My view was that if we finished in the same place then it would be deemed progressive as we would achieve the same on a smaller wage bill with players who would grow with a view to improving over time, that hasn't really changed for me.

    To put it in numbers, here are our league stats for the last 2 seasons

    2011-12 - 8th place - 52pts - F47 A40
    2010-11 - 6th place - 58pts - F59 A44

    and here is where we currently lie with 15 games remaining:

    2012-13 - 7th place - 34pts - F40 A28

    if we were to continue the season on average as we have so far, this is our final standings (can't tell you a position!)

    56 pts - F66 A46

    Does that not suggest progress has been made? I think that it is a fair assumption that the young players have progressed sufficiently so far, also that the team is playing better then earlier in the season whilst the squad is notably going to be stronger over the run in. In my humblest of opinions, to finish with 60 points has to be regarded as somewhat of a success considering the level of transition, I don't think it will be enough to finish in the top 4 but it would be a proven improvement with long term prospects.

    Forget what you dream of being and make sure tomorrow is better then today, that is exactly what we have been doing, looking forward to some feedback!

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    • interesting way of looking at it Hobs. Not the way I had in mind but it works if people want to see numbers on the ground.

      I'm looking at it in a subjective kind of way where I look at the squad and the players in it.

      last year and for many years beforehand we had a squad which was completely out of balance. It ontained players that simply didn't play, weren't suited to each other and certainly not suited to the way Rodgers wants to play. That is now being turned around, slowly but surely. I'm encouraged that evry new player that's arriving at Anfield is a fit for what the squad needs and the way Rodgers wants the team to play.

      There's still players to leave and holes to fill but I'm now starting to see a squad that is built to play in one way. Their strengths as players are suited to that style and therefore they compliment each other. Beforehand that whole side of the club was a mess.

      So if we can consolidate into that style of play this year, then every addition to the squad from here on in only makes us stronger and that means more points etc.

      • 1 Reply to Colyn
      • I think numbers on the board are quite important, last year we still played some excellent football but didnt get the points or goals our performances were deserving off, created the most chances and had the most shots but ultimately were not good enough to finish them off. Nobody remembers if we played well, they just remember the table. We are playing, I would say, much better football then last year but we have more conviction about us, more so in the last 10-12 games then the first.

        I know there is a few of us happy with the direction but I think the post makes a good argument to those BR knockers, would like to see what they have to say in argument, I doubt it will be very substantial.

    • Ok then in terms of league points we've not really progressed..

      However the young players will have improved chiefly because they had to..and we had no choice but to play them, as no money was given to buy quality replacements.

      So with that consideration yes there's been improvement but on an individual basis of certain young players.

    • I think if we get more points than last year, or finish in a higher position then that will be progress for me. In view of the fact that we have had a massive player turnover and new manager and playing philosophy we will have done well. Some people on here look at individual results, when it is the season as a whole that we need to look at. By your model - which is a good way of looking at it - we only need 7 wins for the rest of the season. I think we will do that. If we can finish on 65 points that would be a relatively successful season (although it won't bring me any joy). Next season is the real acid test for me.

      • 2 Replies to Loki
      • Loki I see and share your point. Next season is when we'll have no excuses... no new manager to bed in(assuming FSG stays with Rodgers).

        I'll not say "next season is our season", as thats foolhardly. We've a huge mountain to climb still..

        I think 5th place in the league next season is do-able provided we sign better players who'll slot right into the pass & move ethos Rodgers wants. We still need a few hardmen in the team especially against the likes of Stoke.

      • Agreed, I think we will finish with both more points and a higher position, not by much but 7th place is where we are at and we are certainly better then the teams below us and I dont really see Arsenal or Everton as being any stronger then us whilst Chelsea/Spurs might just be a bit too far ahead given our poor start.

        It is crazy to think we just need 6 wins in the next 15 games to improve on last season, shows how bad a second half we had. I am thinking we will pick up more like 24 points out of that which is 7 wins 3 draws and 5 defeats, not world beating but as a minimum expectation it may well have to do!

        Next season scares me where most would find comfort, I know BR can coach kids, I know he has a good footballing blueprint and he can definitely talk the talk. This is the window we have been told we will be strongly reinforcing but there is just no indication where or how that plan is to be exacted, it could be his Kenny spending disaster or it could be his and our making. It would be heartbreaking to see another huge financial commitment from the board go unwarranted, this time it has to be near enough perfect.

    • Hobs, think we're on the same page here. A while back after BR came out with a statement that he'd be happy if he at least did better than last term, and he got a lot of guff from people who felt if we got 7th it should be viewed as failure and that our manager had only a mid-table mentality. However right now I'd take any progress and call it success.

      I'd go back further than you and look at Rafa's last 2 season:

      2008-09 - 2nd place- 86pts - F68 A24
      2009-10 - 7th place - 63pts - F61 A35
      2010-11 - 6th place - 58pts - F59 A44
      2011-12 - 8th place - 52pts - F47 A40

      Well it seems pretty clear to me that we've been going downhill so if BR can arrest that and actually start moving us in the other direction, even if just slightly, it would surely be a success.

      I'm often told on here to stop talking about style of play or other factors and judge by results, so maybe we all should. End of the day if we make progression over last year, even small progress it’s a major step in the right direction considering the direction we've been going in for the last 4 years!

      • 3 Replies to dsteer_lfc_68
      • Losing 34 points in 3 years is an alarming slide! That is an average of 11 wins and a draw less, it might be deemed succesful to just stop the rot! I forgot how mean our defence was back then, I doubt anyone recently has conceded so few goals in a season but that also brings back memories of the workmanlike displays we used to put in. We were defensively organised and set up not to be beat, if anything it was a slight freak we scored so many goals whilst doing so, I guess a lot to do with a peaking Torres/Gerrard partnership.

        I think a manager could have come in and got more points then we have now by being more defensive but it would have been a short term fix, the expansive way we play now is tidying up its mistakes so lays a better foundation for the future, wins more games with a couple of losses here and there but ultimately more points for losing the big cluster of draws.

        IF you are putting points on the board and grinding them out then people complain about style of play, if you are attacking and flowing but not getting the points then they will complain about that too, we seem to now be combining the 2 together which is good enough for me!

      • Hi Hobs & Dave

        I'll go further, it doesn't matter to me if we finish 5th, 7th or 10th - the board invested in a young, inexperienced manager and it would be crazy to sack him after one season.

        One disagreement with something you said Dave - he didn't say he would be happy to improve on last year, he said it would be "terrific". I was one of the people who criticised him for that and I stand by it. 7th would be acceptable, not terrific.

      • Good reading guys. I said on the Oldham post that higher than realistic expectation was in part responsible for our huge disappointment and hobs and others here have put it more eloquently and factually. Much patience still required methinks.

    • As printed in the paper today, make up your own minds !!

      This time last year
      January 29, 2012

      Through to the FA Cup fifth round after a memorable 2-1 win over deadly rivals Manchester United.

      Preparing for a League Cup final showdown against Cardiff at Wembley.

      About to go fifth in the Premier League with 38 points from 23 games.

      January 29, 2013

      Knocked out of the FA Cup after a 3-2 fourth-round defeat at League One strugglers Oldham Athletic.
      Out of the League Cup at the third-round stage back in October.

      Seventh in the Premier League with 34 points from 23 games.

      • 2 Replies to andy w
      • Certainly was a rosy picture this time last year, but just a shame it was a little downhill from there. Yes we had the jr cup and a loss at Wembley, but the league form was atrocious.

        Look, I've been a Kenny Dalglish supporter since I was a kid, in fact I'll go a step further and tell you he was a hero to me as a child, so there was nothing I wanted more than Kenny back at the helm and for him take us back to the top. But right or wrong, he was judged by the owners based on league progression, and that progress just was not there.

        What is at question now is whether BR is making any progress. So far signs look good, and if he progresses in the run in his job should be secure. If he suffers a stumble as KD is, then I'm sure the owners will not be happy.

      • Never, you're looking at half a season. Wait til the end of the season for a comparative. Also, everyone makes it sound like we've won every competition since records began!

    • Did you actually see the Spurs away game? That was probably the best I have seen us play but ultimately we lost. I was pro KK, broke my heart to see him leave and was adament he deserved another season. I felt we were unlucky last season as well, we created lots of chances, just turned out that we couldnt put them away. You cant however blame luck for half a season of relegation form, especially not the second half when we are meant to have gelled.

      The problem with Kenny was, he threw a lot of eggs into the Carroll basket, he bought players to play off him, Suarez to drop off him, Downing, Adam and Hendo to supply but they werent acurate more creating average chances which kept racking up the stats, along with a series of misses which is the quality of the strikers finishing. Adam was meant to be a corner and free kick deliverer but was awful, Downing made 71 chances with no conversions, be that the quality of chances created or the lack of the quality in the striker I do not know. Henderson created more chances for Sunderland then anyone in the premier league bar Malouda but that didnt mean Sunderland scored a lot of goals.

      Suarez is quality, no doubt, but it does still take him an average of 10 shots to get a goal, he isnt ruthlessly clinical more that he is an endless stream of self made opportunities. Carroll, well, it was either the delivery or his movement but he just couldnt finish anything.

      So why is it that United are forever so lucky every week but LFC are always unlucky nearly every week? It is down to players with an instilled conviction and mentality, players who can take that chance when it is presented. There is no luck over a season, only in a moment, you create your own. All fart no poo was the Kenny chapter 2 Liverpool.

    • I'm sorry you feel we've had so many bad days at the office based on performance, Personally while I of course can't say we've not had a number of less than stellar outings, I suppose I may have enjoyed the football, the effort, the promise of the youngsters, and other things during matches where we've not secured the result, more than you.

      But I do also have to say I think you may be looking through awfully dark tinted glasses if you seriously don't think Kenny never had a bad day at the office over his second tenure as manager. No doubt he had some horrible back luck, and I often found myself wanting to pull out my hair in frustration last season, however thinking finishing 8th in the league, the worst league finish in my lifetime I believe, cannot be justified just because of bad luck.

      Now I'm not going to round on Kenny, as I've mentioned before he was a childhood hero of mine, and a true legend. However I'm sure he himself would have a little chuckle if you told him you thought he had a perfect season last year, and it was all just the rub of the green that did not go our way.

    • You're probably right regards the Spurs game I probably was too harsh there as we did actaully show committment even though we didn't get the result.
      I disagree however on a couple of other points, even though I think he wanted to I don't think KK really got a lot of opportunities to throw eggs into Carroll basket because he seemed either injured or didn't start many a game last year !
      With regards Suarez I agree last year there were many a missed chance but I do think he's addressed the goal to shot ratio this time around.
      Henderson and Downing I feel are now becoming the players KK thought he was buying.
      Wholeheartedly agree with the United point and it is probably the main reason I'm a bittter and twisted LFC fan because I can remember when we had that same winning mentality and strode nonchalantly over English and European teams !
      In a nutshell....WE WERE THE BEATLES.....NOW WE'RE OASIS !!

    • Hi Dave,
      I admit there have been some very good performances this year, with regards the youngsters they have looked good but are now appearing to be getting burnt out. Like one of the old boys said the other day, the youngsters would get a game in our day, but when you were 3-0 up and cruising not 3-1 down at a cold wet away match with a pitch like a ploughed field !
      With regards tinted glasses, if you read the post I didn't say KK didn't have a bad day at the office and mentioned the Bolton match away as the only time I can honestly say we were really
      Like I've said before if KK had been given one more season and was shyte again then I'd hold my hand up and say fair enough...but like yourself having lived through it and dined at the top table for all those years past LFC today just doesn't "feel" right and I don't think I'll feel it again any day soon.

    • never topthe kop...Im totally in agreement with u thee have been far too many p***-poor performances this season. The low point last season was at Bolton and Kenny quite rightly flipped and called the team out on the performance that day which resulted in a definitive upturn in performance and we didnt see the like of it again that season but I see every one of the games u listed as being low points thisseason on apar with that Bolton performance or non performance last yr.
      As u say the jury isstill well out on BR's signings but have to say for me I must say my own verdict on Borini is in...waste of space and total waste of money thinkwe will be lucky to get a couple hundred thou back for this guy when he leaves as surely he must end of this season unless BR treats him as apersonal fave. Asaidi is inconsistent both for club and country would be looking to give him till end of season to attempt to turn things around if he cant then..hit the bricks ! Sturridge of the lot of them that BR has been responsible for signing I like the look of most....he looks hungry and looks like he could prove to be a clinical finisher of chances presented and even the odd half chance too...but think I will restrain myself from saying hes the biz till end of season. Kennys signings are certainly starting to show their worth particularly young Hendo !
      Stewart Downing has made a good effort at turning things around
      and I still wish we had Charlie Adam fr games like Stoke Mansfield and Oldham he would provide a bit of steel and determination in the midfield. Im still of the mind that Kenny should have been given another season to prove his way was the right way to take the club forward but its not like that and though Im not the most avid fan of BR im NOT calling for his sacking but believe that in this forum its only normal for some of us who have followed this club our entire lives to get on here and criticise his performance when we feel it has been lacking , his inability to motivate the lads adequately or his choice of signings and their performances....I think its ok to say we have to be patient during this rebuild period but a rebuild period has to have a limit imposed and then there has tobe the success that comes as a result of the patience with the rebuild...I do not see giving BR five more yrs before he renders ANY silverware for us...by end of next season there MUST be some kind of silverware in the trophy room not just this same mantra of "Our main objective is a top 4 slot at end of season.".....this isnt good enough we need to have a strong enough and deep enough squad with sufficient REAL TALENT to be challenging on all fronts ...InLeague at hope in whichever European Cup we find ourselves in FA CUP and League Cup...no excuses whe we go out of such competitions as "It wasnt our main priority."

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