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  • Paddy Paddy Feb 15, 2013 09:34 Flag

    What's Going On?

    Hi Noo Noo

    You missed a few of the Rafa list:-

    Xabi Alonso, Luis Garcia, Pepe Reina, Daniel Agger, Alvaro Arbeloa, Fernando Torres, Javier Mascherano, Lucas, Martin Skrtel, Glen Johnson, Martin Kelly, Raheem Sterling, Suso. Obviously he was also the one the converted JC into one of the best centre backs in the country.

    My point being that I'll happily put up with a manager signing dross if he can also pull out a side capable of competing with anyone in the world which is what we had only 5 years ago.

    "I actually think this year is better"

    I know you're a big BR fan but I'd ask how many of our best XI come from Benitez/Dalglish signings? Count them up, you'll be surprised. BR's summer signings were conspicuous by their absence last night - Allen was awful again, Borini rightly got nowhere near the park and we haven't heard much from Assaidi for quite a while. Nuri Sahin has picked up his wages and left and, before anyone points to Dan Sturridge, I remind people of the post I put up back in October - the reports at that time suggested it was BR that pulled the plug on Sturridge moving to us in the summer.

    How is this year better?

    Don't get me wrong, I think Allen in particular may come good and understand that BR is inexperienced and may improve in spotting what he wants to bring in. It's just that I don't think it's right to criticise other managers and then praise BR's signing record when the truth in front of us doesn't bear it out.

    Hope you don't mind me disagreeing with you on this point.

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    • I'll take a deep breath and count to 10. ;o)
      Although I wasn't exactly pointing the finger at Rafa (I'll do that now further down), I haven't exactly raved about Borini either. I've also said that I agree with the OP that our transfer policy is shot. He was the one that started the Rafa list. I would personally throw Dalglish's first stint in there as well if you like. Of course there was Souness too with Walters etc. My point is that we as a club have been making bad signings for years. I'd shudder at the money gone there.

      I think this year is better because the signings make more sense than they have previously. Borini, for example, even though ithasn't worked is a quick attacking player that can play wide. He fits the playing philosophy. Carroll as another example doesn't!

      Now to the fun - Rafa. My dislike of him is also well known. I would ask you who was in charge during period where we purchased more players that did nothing for the first or youth teams?

      Yes he purchased good players. I would expect any PL manager with the budget he was given to do that. But his transfer record suggests to me that he threws darts at a board with names on it. He was also in charge when the club adopted a completely ridiculous wage structure (Jovanovic for £120k a week).

      I would also argue that we had 6 years to decide that Rafa was in charge. It seems many on here have made there minds up after 6 months. At least I gave Rafa 3 years before I decided we'd never win the league with him

      • 2 Replies to Colyn
      • Hi Noo Noo

        Just replied to both you and Arnold but wanted to pick up on a one other things from your post...

        I'm not saying that BR has failed after 6 months. All I'm saying is that to pretend that there is proof that he has been a success is wrong. The very best you can say are that his summer signings haven't come good yet.

        Whether you judge BR on results or on signings, I don't think you can point to the season so far and say that there is proof positive that he is doing any better than what went before. That doesn't mean that I think he should be sacked (I don't).

      • Forgot Jovanovic but you have to be wrong about £120k a week? you have to be, that's just so wrong if its true!

        Remember Istvan Kozma from Dunfermline.

    • I certainly disagree with you buddy... Your list of players who Rafa signed is a top list but.... I ask, did we win the league title under Rafa? (please don't reply 'well we did finish 2nd'!).


      Alonso - Rafa attempted to ditch (to sign Barry) and peed him off.

      Garcia - good signing, he sold him to early.

      arbeloa - good, think he sold him (may be wrong)>

      Lucas - not really that great a signing, average at best.

      Skrtel - simply 'NO'

      Sterling - good prospect but over the top praise is getting a bit stupid.

      Kelly - sicknote (not his fault though).

      Mascherano - another one who rafa upset.

      And you forgot Crouch - never should have signed him and yet, he became pretty good and showed some bottle in not getting down about his scoring record. Rafa really stuck with him, built his confidence.... then decided to ignore him for the rest of his stay and sold him!

      • 1 Reply to arnoldlayne
      • Hi Arnold & Noo Noo

        On the Rafa thing, I don't doubt that he made mistakes but the point I was trying to make is that he also put together a decent side capable of challenging for titles - more than anyone has done since.

        You both made lots of points so I'll just pick a few to reply to if that's ok ...

        1) The dartboard thing. Rafa's net spend in the six seasons 04-10 was £63.5m or £10m per year which I would argue compare favourably with other recent managers (those figures don't include the subsequent selling of Torres).
        2) He adopted a policy of trading up over a period of years to get a competitive squad (e.g. buys Crouch, sells at a profit and buys Torres) and build a youth system that we are relying on today.
        3) There's a lot of rubbish talked about Masch &, in particular, Alonso. Apparently Alonso was so upset by Rafa that he played fantastically for a season and then left a year later? At the time Spain offered footballers a virtual tax-free haven whilst the UK government was talking about introducing a super-rich tax at 60%. Add to that Alonso is Spanish, one of the top two clubs in Spain offer him a deal and that club is one his old man used to play for. Tell me again why Alonso left Liverpool (ps. I know what he has been quoted as saying).

        The bottom line for me is this.

        In May 09 we had come second to Utd with a record 86 points. In the previous four years we had been to 2 CL finals and one semi-final. We were playing and beating Europes best teams (inc. Barca in the Nou Camp & stuffing Madrid at Anfield). In 08/09 & the next year, the owners pulled the plug on spending (sell to buy ... net spends -£6.4m & -.£8.6m respectively) and we've been mid-table ever since. Those are facts :-).

        I asked this before the season started - for those that thought he did a sh*te job ...

        How long do I have to wait and how many managers do I have to sit through to get back to the rubbish results of Rafa's reign?

        With each passing month, his time in charge of the club is looking more and more impressive to this fan at least.