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  • hot dogs buers chips hot dogs buers chips Feb 19, 2013 19:01 Flag

    Anyone for a Carra/Stevie combi to run the show ?

    Colin I can't help but notice that last season you were singing Kenny's praises for playing total football tactics, yet this season you bemoan Rodgers for employing tiki-taki. Tiki-taki was of course famously developed at Barcelona under the guidance of one Johan Cruyff, the same Johan Cruyff who developed totaalvoetbal at Ajax and the Dutch national side, there is only one Johan Cruyff after all. I have another name for tiki-taki and total football, it's called pass and move, developed by Shankly, made famous by Liverpool F.C.

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    • hot dogs...believe total football and tici taca to be too different species. Tici Taca was developed by Pep Guardiola as a style and executed to perfection by his Barca sides. Cruyff was never in charge long enough at Barca to bring about the same kind of revolution thatPep did. Total Football u are correct originated in Hoilland whether Cruyff originated the style Im not sure. Pass and Move was indeed implemented as our true style by Mr Shankly now we play tici taca which in essence DOES rquire u to move but we just adhere to the pass side of this style forgetting to move because everyoine is so seemingly afraid to be caught inposesssion that we just pss and then stare at the player we passed it to in case he wishes to simply pas it back to us in a sideways or backwards fashion ! ??? Mate if u back and support Rogers and where u think hes taking us its your right my point of view is enough is enough any further delay in getting rid of this horrendous mistake that he is could prove fatal .... we are going nowhere withthis man..he cannot inspire the lads. He has no spirit and the side is mirroring its manager.

      • 4 Replies to colin
      • I think Rinus Michels developed total football - cruyff just played in the team. With regards to what Rodgers is doing, isn't he doing better than Kenny in the league? We've won more at Anfield, and scored more goals already than the whole of last season. I would say we have a good chance of finishing in a higher position than last year, and that to me, shows progress. Too much has had to change this season for there to be consistency. Next season is the one for me. If we have the same kind of problems we've had this year next season, I'll probably agree with you. As it is, I want to see how it pans out.

        I don't think Rodgers does just buy players he knows, he's just signed Coutinho hasn't he?

        Look at the players he has signed. No-one was moaning about Joe Allen, a player that had 94% completion last year. The others have got pace and skill. The only question mark for me is Borini, but he's been injured so very difficult to make a proper judgement although I must say he has never impressed me. If one out of six of Rodgers signings doesn't work out I will be more than happy with that!

        Another thing. Rodgers has been coaching players for over 20 years. The only coaching Stevie and Carra have done is with a group of kids selected by our sponsors. I have no doubt that Carra in particular will be a top manager one day, but this job would be too big too soon. People talk about Kenny's first stint,but to compare the situations is laughable. He took over a team at the top of the pile, this is completely different. I really don't think they have the knowledge of players needed to build a team. Anyone can spend £50 mil on a top player. Unearthing gems is the key!

        In a nutshell, Rodgers is 70% where he needs to be but he knows this! He also knows the surgery needed which will come in the summer. Remember it took City four years to build a team and a billion quid, and you can't change too much too soon otherwise you never get anywhere. I think he is doing a decent job.

      • Colin,

        Just a simple question for you in regards to your Carra/Stevie running the show theme.. Aside from games they've played in this season and recent years, including EPL and Europa, what type of scouting / rating system would you imagine the two of them have? During the season, ie January Window, they would be player/manager and then expected to make decisions on players they may not have heard of or seen in person based on tape/recommendations from scouts?

        In the summer, Carra is expected to take a very long time away from football, and Stevie will have his holiday, World Cup/Friendly Competition and his only personal life/ personal training.

        Basically the way the game is today, with all of the transfers from around the world, adhering to FFP, and understanding alot of the financial schemes, that would be a job in itself, and for all their love, heart and desire with LFC in their blood, I feel pretty comfortable saying neither is quite ready for many of those aspects, and only what they can handle with a current squad and playing/managing themselves.

        As for your the ball not going forward enough, there have been matches where I might agree, and those are ones we weren't consistent enough either drew or lost, so fair enough, but it also has to be pointed out, that while you're referring to the Swans side as a reserves, it wasn't quite that weak, and we played that similar weak side in the Carling Cup at Anfield and got beat 3-1, knocked out, now we win 5-0. Also, for the ball not going forward enough:

        -Liverpool have 49 goals this season through 27 games, and had 47 goals all of last season!!!
        -Liverpool have taken more shots on goal than any team amongst Europe's top leagues (aka going forward and creating chances)
        -Liverpool took 33 shots on goal vs Swans (irregardless) which was a season record and highest in Europe.
        -Liverpool have scored more goals than Spurs and Everton, and 1 goal behind Arsenal, but our defence is 7th amongst the top 7, showing that our offense has created enough for us to be fighting neck and neck with 4th/5th ..
        -Liverpool with Rodgers who you don't like and convinced is not right for LFC, but also not doing any good, has achieved all of those things above with some of the very same players we had last year who literally gave no impact as far as goals/assists in the league: Downing, Henderson, Shelvey, Enrique .. Yet this year, they've all contributed to around 10 goals and several assists with vastly improved play and individual improvement/progress, which each has attributed to Rodgers giving them a public kick up the backside..

        Some of these players are performing better now than they did last year under Kenny who bought them and trained them, and each mentioned how much the new manager, his methods, words and tactics are helping them and making them happy.. I'm scratching my head aside from our entire TEAM and it's lack of consistency in results on a regular basis..?

      • Guardiola may have been the benefactor of Barca's success, but I can assure you it was Cruyff who revolutionised the club. I am not a Rodgers fan, I am a Liverpool fan and so far I believe he is taking us on an interesting journey. Wether or not he will succeed will remain to be seen but watching Liverpool this season with no pretensions of success has surprised me. I think the style we are playing is as close to all out attacking football, all be it with a lean towards possession, and is as close to pass & move as we have played since the 80's. I loved Kenny's return and I was sickened when he was sacked, but that wasn't Rodgers fault and in hindsight we are playing much better under him. Trust me, this season has heightened my expectations for the next one and if we haven't significantly improved by this time next year I will be driving the "Rodgers out" bandwagon. But for now it's just too early.

      • Sorry Colin. Guardiola had nothing to do with Tiki Taka at Barcelona. It was developed in the academy by Cruyff and his cohorts and then taken right through the club. Guardiola came in as manager and befitted from the system put in place. As Rijkaard benefited before him. The whole point being that everyone in the club plays the same way with the same system etc. Then every player would excellent close ball control and the game runs around short passes where possession is key. If you lose it you then get it back. Remember the 6 seconds quote? Where a Barcelona side is given 6 seconds to win the ball back?

        Total Football was about every player being completely flexible in their roles on the pitch. Basically Ajax tried to ensure that every player could attack & defend etc.

        Tiki Taka / Pass and move Shankly style share much in common. There's a huge problem with UK born players in that they forget the move bit. The game is also different to Shankly's time and that demands a slightly different approach. Such is the pace of the game and players that when you lose possession you must retain your shape or you will be found out (Que our problem this year and Rafa's tactics were focused completely on that ). Tiki Taka demands you press high, get the ball back ASAP but not lose your shape.

        Did the lads not look inspired last night? I don't see that being the problem. There's a quality issue for sure but that's not going to be fixed overnight. But don't you think it's almost exciting that when full on Tiki Taka is put into a club you can drag a youngster from the under 18's and stick him in the first team and he will know exactly how to play?