Liverpool Message Board
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If the question was "is Joe Allen any good" I'd say "yeah, he's ok as a useful squad player". But if the question was "is Joe Allen worth £15 M" I'd have to say "Hmmmm I very much doubt it". The previous manager got pilloried for splashing £35 M on Andy Carroll when the Torres cash was sloshing arround and rightly so. Carroll was / is good, but not that good....and so is the case with Joe Allen, the slight difference being that when Joe was bought the cash was in very short supply. In fact to "crash the cash" on ex- Swansea "stars" Allen @£15 M and Borrini @£10 M has IMO proved not to be a very sensible decision at all 'cos neither has delivered very much. In fact, based on this past form, if I was John Henry I would seriously consider banning Brendan from going back to Swansea to buy a "hat-trick" of "stars" in bidding for Ashley Williams. If, however, we went for Laudrup it would be a different matter, but then I'm ever the cynic!
Ron J ...IN 100% agreement with u ..no way FSG should give Rogers any more money to go back shopping fo ex players of his when at Swansea both Borini and Allen have proved to be a bust...enough of all this Swansea shyte. To be frank dont honestly feel Laudrup would be much if any better than Rogers. Similar amount of cash spent on Couhtino and Sturridge looks like it might pay dividends...So Im with u stay the hell away from Swansea. If we want something in the middle lets fessup the cash and bring in Chris SAMBA !
- 1 Reply to colin
Hey Col. I'm only being a little mischevious about Laudrup but I do honestly think, being so well travelled, he may be just a little bit more aware of the potential of foreign stars to bring in at budget prices. I think that, as you say, Chris Samba could add a lot of value to our central defence, particularly with Carra retiring and Martin Skrtyll looking like he will be off elsewhere. I also heard today a whisper that Brendan is now looking to try and poach a time wasteing ball boy from Swansea? Whatever next? I believe that Chelsea are quite interested too!!
The problem with the "worth" argument is that it’s so subjective. What's a tin of beans worth?
For me what the price tag is goes out the window as soon as the money has left the account. At that point it becomes completely irrelevant, and the only relevant question is, does he make us better or not. If you want to put money into the equation, then best to look at is the player worth what we pay him each week not what his transfer fee was, as it’s a sunk cost.
Based on that question, it really comes down to whether Allen's level is what we saw in the first half of the season, or the second half. If the first then I'd say yes he's worth keeping. He's as you say a neat and tidy player, distributes very well, and allows us to keep control of the ball. However in most matches, especially where a bit of steel is in order given the choice I'd put Lucas ahead of him, but I still think he has a place and worth keeping. What are we paying the lad?
To look at this in equal measure for Carroll then to be fair the 35M has to be disregarded (which I've said before, including last season) as while it may have been a silly amount the money is gone, and so is irrelevant. The question is would he make the team better, and or is he worth his weekly pay packet. Based on that, the answer would seem to be no, and even more so now. He could play our current system, but his best advocate would be hard pressed to say it was the ideal system for him, and with our current attacking players does anyone really think he'd get much more than a few cup starts? Based on that, he's not really helping the team, and hardly worth his reported weekly compensation.
But if we insist on looking at the transfer fee, then let's at least think of some parallels other than Carroll for comparison. For example was Henderson worth 16M in his first season? What about now? Not sure, what about in 3 seasons from now? Just to show why I put it that way, how many honestly thought Lucas was worth 9M in his first season, his second, or even his third? How many now think 9M six years ago (which might be closer to 12 or even 15M today with football inflation!) was a waste of money?
- 2 Replies to dsteer_lfc_68
First of all I have to say that this new Board format is completely assinine cos in order to respond to your latest posting David, I have to go back to a much earlier one, which could make me appear to be talking to myself and probably twice as crazy as I really am. Nothwithstanding, I think maybe the best way to clarify my feelings on Transfer fees is to liken them to buying a car. If I shell out a lot of money on my car and decide after 12 months or so, that it isnt really to my liking but its still got a lot of service life left, then what I paid for it initially is very relevant and I will try my hardest to get back as much as possible of my initial outlay. If however I really like the motor and keep it for a long time and its got a lot of miles on the clock, I do conceed that the origonal cost to me becomes less relevant. Thus as Mr LFC I'm not too bothered about how much I paid for old Lucas Levia 'cos I'm happy that I've had many years of good service from him. However if I'm not too happy with young Andy Carroll after a year or so's service and I want to sell him on I really do want the comfort of at least getting back the major portion of what he cost me initially.In this situation I would suggest that Price Tags are very relevant and not to be cast out of the window as soon as the money has left the account as you have stated. I accept that the Transfer Fee is not as accurate a measure as we would really like, but for me its still the best and easiest yardstick available within reason.
As usual David, your posting is curiously interesting or maybe more interestingly curious. Transfer fees to me are only a snapshot in time and usualy reflect past performance, age and experience together with a little of how much playing value he gives to my team as opposed to how much I think you may be willing to pay so as to secure that playing potential for your team. However the ideal is usually to buy low and sell high which I seem to remember is the considered view of John Henry and Co's "moneyball" transfer cash booster theory. Truely, a can of beans is relatively a very desirable and expensive comodity to a starving beggar but to a millionaire it's probably a hardly desireable and worthless whatnot that has no place on the rich mans table. I guess therefore if my name is Roman Abramovitch or Sheik Abu Dhabi then the price tag matters very little 'cos I can always quite easily go and get someone else without too much concern as to where the money is coming from. However if my Club is Cashstrapped FC then the profit and loss of buying and selling becomes very important in determining whether I can afford to upgrade the quality of my playing staff. I suppose last August if I'd wanted to buy Clint Dempsey at £8M, I could easily have off loaded Andy Carroll at £15 M. I could have saved on Andy's great big monthly pay packet but to take such a big hit on the £35 M paid for asset?? Hmmm, dont think so. I dont honestly think John Henry and Co see price tags as irrelevant and I'm afraid, neither do I. If we went back to the market place now I dont think we'd get anywere near our money back on Carroll, Henderson, Borrini or Joe Allen..................but Luis Suarez....now thats one that really, really does worry me.