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The Abi Tierney interview: Why I didn't sack Gatland and Nigel Walker is no scapegoat

WRU CEO Abi Tierney
-Credit:Huw Evans Picture Agency


The Welsh Rugby Union announced on Friday that Wales head coach Warren Gatland would continue in his role ahead of the 2025 Six Nations, despite losing 12 consecutive Test matches.

However, as part of a in-depth review into the national team's performance, executive director of rugby Nigel Walker stood down from his role.

The review, which has also recommended a new high-performance panel be set up and changes to Gatland's coaching staff considered, was presented to the WRU board by CEO Abi Tierney on Tuesday.

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Here's everything she had to say about the results of this monumental review...

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How was the decision made to keep Gatland?

"It was a far-reaching and meticulous review. We went through looking at all the performance data from the last 12 games. We also looked at and talked to a lot of people from a qualitive perspective to get their input into it. We analysed all that to see, in simple terms, if changing the coach at this time would make a positive or negative difference. It suggested that it would not make a positive difference to change the coach. Actually, what would make a difference was if we backed Gatland to turn it around. That was the first stage, so I went into the board on Tuesday and made that recommendation, which the board backed. The next stage was to make sure Warren was up for that and up for the challenge, which he really is. He's seen the review and outcomes, and absolutely believes he's in the best position to turn it around."

Was there a bullet-point recommendation in the review to keep Gatland or was it a case of you as CEO looking at the findings and making the recommendation yourself that he should stay?

"It was the latter. I think that's because it's complex, it's multi-faceted. It's systemic issues where the coaches' impact is just one thing we need to consider. But I absolutely went into that board and recommended that Gatland should stay. There was then a really intense conversation that followed that, where the board challenged me on that and challenged whether it was the right decision. But then the board all concluded that it was the best decision for Welsh rugby."

And that was unanimous?

"Yes, it was."

Wales have lost 12 Tests in a row - what makes you think Gatland is the right man to take Wales into 2025?

"We've talked a lot about this. There are many, many challenges with Welsh rugby and a lot of it comes down to where we are as a system. We have a lot of players who are new. We had a lot of players retiring after the last World Cup. It's actually about building for the future. Warren has the skillset, capability and passion to do that. I believe he absolutely is committed to doing that and taking it forward."

What was Gatland's reaction when he saw the report and heard the decision?

"You can see his quotes. He used the word 'humbled'. I think it was a really difficult read. Given where we are as a Union, you wouldn't expect anything less. He was humbled. He wanted to be part of improving and changing it. He was fired up to do that. He accepted all of the recommendations taken to the board. It was a really engaging conversation about how we are going to enact those."

How close was Gatland to not continuing?

"We had a number of conversations leading up to the review. Warren was a big contributor to it. We both talked about the fact that if the review had gone a different way, he would no longer be the coach of Wales. How close? I think it was a tough conversation. It was not straightforward or a slam dunk by any means."

What does he have to change in the Six Nations? What does success look like?

"I think it would be unfair if I went out and said it's two games or three games, because then we'll all be watching. It's a combination of how we play, how well we play and how we perform on the pitch. I've had some very transparent conversations with Warren about what those KPIs are but that's not to be shared with the public for everyone to be counting down and seeing if they deliver against them. But he's got to show significant progress and improvement."

Was succession planning and timing an issue, giving the tight turnaround before the Six Nations?

"Timing is an issue. We've got three weeks until we announce a squad for the Six Nations and four weeks until they're in camp. Clearly that has to be considered in this, but it was one of many things that we considered. We looked at that, but it wasn't the ultimate deciding factor. But stability is really important for a team and certainty is important for a team. You have to consider all of those, but it wasn't a deciding factor."

Will we go through this again after the Six Nations? You've indicated there'll be another review?

"Reviews happen after every one. What we've done with this one is make it more independent and more far-reaching. What we've got now is a data-pack that we will continue to use. We've now got a baseline based on this and we'll continue to do that. We'll update that. The high-performance panel we've announced will be critical to that. They'll play the role of really challenging the coaching team and high-performance team about what's changed and if we've progressed. They will help me build my recommendations for the board. I'm a huge and passionate rugby fan - I live, sleep and dream rugby - but I'm not a rugby expert. So I'm really welcoming their input from a team that will be independent and can help me think through and undertake that."

Could there be changes made to the coaching staff?

"There could be. We're just working through what those options are, based on what the data tells us and who is available. That's one of the things we're looking at."

What was the most alarming bit of the review?

"Alarming isn't the word I would use, but I would say there were many things that were humbling to me. Just seeing in black and white the impact that the experience that our team has. There's quite a lot of data in there that shows where we compare in terms of number of caps and number of minutes played. There's some really interesting data on team cohesion. So if you think that there's 450 possible pairings within a squad, how many minutes each of those pairings have played together has a massive impact on the ability to win. When you compare where we are as a Union to those succeeding at the minute, it's very, very stark. Just seeing that all in black and white, page after page, knowing that will take time, passion, commitment and effort from every single person in the system - not just me, but the regions, coaching team and the players - to turn that around, it was humbling from that perspective."

This was an opportunity to make a big statement but you chose not to. Did you ever consider that?

"It could have been, but I would not have done it to make a defining decision if I did not think it was right for Welsh rugby. I'm someone that is data-led in my decisions. I will base it on that, not on public perceptions of what is the right thing to do. I'm in the privileged position of having access to information and a lot of people's opinions on this. If I felt it was the right decision, I would not have shied away from that. I'm confident we've made the right decision for Welsh rugby taking it forward."

Was it Nigel Walker's decision to stand down?

"Yes, it was."

Why was that?

"The conversations that Nigel and I had, as executive director of rugby, he is responsible for the performance on the pitch. The review did show there were things he could have done differently, and he was very reflective of that. I think the second bit, and this is the more important piece, is where we are going, in taking it forward. In terms of the new deal we're negotiating with the regions. it's going to be a very different way of working. He felt, and I agreed with him, that at this point it was the right time to bring someone new in with a fresh approach, different experience and whose heart was in it."

Would you refute he was a scapegoat?

"I would absolutely refute that. I've worked with Nigel for a year. He's a man of massive dignity and he cares passionately about Welsh Rugby. He feels he isn't the right person to take it forward at the moment. It takes a man to understand that and believe in that. He absolutely isn't a scapegoat. He could have chosen to go at a different point and wouldn't have been a scapegoat. He's not a scapegoat."

Was the women's contract saga telling in his departure?

"You'd have to ask Nigel that question. He's said he could have done things differently there and we all could have done things differently in that process. The review will state that. Nigel has apologised for what he had done there. We accepted his apology and moved on. It's not tied into that."

You've used Portas for the review, but is it worth it when finances are tight? And how much money have you spent on Portas in the last 12 months?

"Is it worth it? Yes. I think it is worth it. Certainly in the feedback I've had, including from Nigel and Warren, was the quality of data we've had as a result of this was worth it. That outside-in challenge, when we are where we are, we need to be challenged. We need to be setting ourselves really high standards. I've said all along we do reviews at the end of every campaign. I was asked to lead this, but I needed some data analysis to support it. So it hasn't been a massively expensive exercise from that perspective. I think it's been worth every penny. And no, I won't tell you how much money we've spent on reviews in the last year. It's not an answer I'm going to give. I'll just challenge it as well. This is about an organisation that is learning and isn't where it needs to be. If you just continue blindly without actually asking if we're learning, changing or listening, you'd have every right to criticise."

What was Portas' role within the review?

"They basically acted as me, in a lot of it. When I described that 20 years of data, that's a central database they have access to, of all global rugby games - at international and national level - that allows you to compare and contrast Wales' performances with others, so we can do deep dives. We don't have access to that, but they do. In previous reviews, when Warren does it, it's our data. But this gave me a lot of comparative data, so we weren't marking our own homework. That was really powerful. The other thing they helped to do was the 19 qualitive interviews, to make sure they were independent. So 19 interviews following the same structure and approach, they did that and people felt it was done in a confidential and independent way. They then brought all of that together and summarised it. I signed off what the questions would be and I said what data I needed. So basically they were doing my leg work for me."

How did Gatland react to seeing the players' honest feedback, as that's presumably unique to this review?

"It is. You'd have to ask him, but he said he was humbled by what he saw. I think he found it really helpful. It's given him some really clear steers on where he needs to change and what changes he needs to make. He's very grateful for everybody who's contributed to it."

There's been talk about a break clause. Was that relevant to the decision made?

"That was absolutely not relevant to any decision made."

With Gatland's future now up in the air, if not now then certainly after the Six Nations and beyond, has the search to find Wales' next coach begun?

"As a chief executive in any organisation, you need to have succession plans in place. That's really important in your job, whether it's my role, the chair's role or any other role, it's key. I call them roles that are single points of failure, because if they go, they're critical to the whole organisation. So do I think about who would replace, when, how and who is available? Then you absolutely need to. One of the things I do is think about who would replace someone if it was needed immediately - you call it the run over a bus scenario - as well as who is ready to replace someone in a year or two and then who is ready to replace someone in three years. I think that's good thinking and the head coach role is no different to that. But if you're asking whether I'm actively searching or recruiting for any coach, then no."

The proposed amendments to Gatland's set-up mentions bringing in "additional personnel", which makes it sound that bringing in people, but people not necessarily leaving. Is that the case?

"We're looking at the coaching set-up, based on the analysis we've done and some of the particular areas, whether there are any changes we can make. We're not yet at the point to say whether that means change. We're working through that."

So that particular wording doesn't rule out departures?

"No."

With the new high-performance panel, has the personnel been decided and when can we expect an announcement?

"No personnel have been decided. We've approached some people who have said they would be up for supporting us and being part of it. We need to go through that process and ensure we're very clear on the terms of reference and time commitment required. What kinds of skillsets we're looking at. That's still a work in progress but we've had some conversations."

What would you expect the make up of that to be?

"There's other sporting organisations that have this. I think it's got to be a combination of people who have played, people who have coached, potentially people who understand what high-level sports environments are like. I'll sit on it. It'll be a mixture of skills from that perspective."

What other organisations have them?

"Tottenham have one. RFU have one. They're all quite different. Particularly in an environment where your chief executive is not necessarily a football or rugby expert. It's to provide that real in-depth expert challenge to a coaching and high-performance set-up that a board like ours, where you've got people from business backgrounds, (can't). In the future, I won't need a Portas to build that data, because I'll have the high-performance panel to give me advice. I could have my coach telling me one thing, the regions saying something else and the panel telling me another thing. It's about having that constant input. It helps me going to the board knowing I've had that detailed challenge from experts.

Does this panel effectively replace Nigel Walker's role?

"No, we'll be going out to recruit a replacement. This panel is much more a mixture of people that we take performance challenges from. To give you an example, if we are considering changing our coaching set-up, based on the data, I'll have Warren give me his suggestions on what he'd like to change. But I'm not an expert. I won't have the best impact, but I'll have some experts who can advise me on it. Most good businesses would have that in one form or another. I expect them to meet maybe three or four times a year, after every campaign."

How is the overall strategy with the four professional clubs looking as things stand?

"It's continuing to progress and continuing to be collaborative and constructive. I'm confident we'll get it over the line. We're right in the final details of that. I'm very grateful for them all contributing to get us where we need to be. A real indication of that is this is probably the first time they've ever been brought in to look at the national team's performance and give feedback on that. One of the really interesting conversations is what we can do between now and the players coming into camp, if there is anything we can change there. We're getting there."