The proud Wales captain and his giant son Warren Gatland is very excited about

The Llewellyn family tree tells a tale about the changing face of rugby over the last few decades.

Former Wales skipper Gareth was 6ft 6ins, just like his fellow international brother Glyn, with both playing in the second row.

His son Max - part of the current Welsh squad - is of a similar stature at 6ft 5ins, but plies his trade in the centre.

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As the 92-cap Gareth acknowledges, these are very different times from when he started out in the sport in the late 1980s.

“Back in the day, if you were tall, you got shoved in the second row,” he says.

“I was always going to be a lock, never anything else.

“There were big guys who would have made really good centres, but they were played in the forwards because of their size and probably fell out of love with the game a bit and didn’t carry on playing.

“You just didn’t get the 6ft 5ins guys in the backs.

“But then, from the mid-90s onwards, you started to get bigger players coming through behind the scrum.

“Probably one of the first ones from my era was Gareth Thomas. I remember seeing him at training for the first time and thinking ‘Flipping heck, he’s the same size as our back rowers’.

“Then, obviously, Jonah Lomu came along and he was huge. He was a No 8 originally and they moved him out.

“That was the beginning of a new era. With the game going professional, people were training full time and doing weights and gradually they started getting bigger and bigger.”

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Warren Gatland’s first spell in charge of Wales saw a succession of sizeable backs come to the fore, with the likes of Jamie Roberts, George North, Alex Cuthbert and Jonathan Davies playing key roles.

So, seeing someone of Max’s stature in the threequarters is now far from unique. He has been utilising that frame to good effect for Gloucester this season, hence his call-up to the Wales squad for the autumn internationals.

Born in Kingston-upon-Thames, while his father was playing for Harlequins, he grew up in Cardiff, starting his rugby journey with Clwb Rygbi Ieuenctid Cwins Cymraeg.

So what kind of spectator was the old man?

“Honestly, I was the least interested person on a Sunday morning down at CRICC,” says Gareth.

“I would stand at the end of the pitch and let them get on with it. As long as they were having a good time with their mates, that was fine. I didn’t get involved in the coaching.

“Max was always a good player in his age group and he always looked like he was going to be a back rather than a forward.

“I just let him get on with it until he was about 15 and he said ‘I really want to try and be a rugby player’

“So I said ‘Right, this is what you need to start doing’.”

Max certainly took heed, making real progress during his time at Ysgol Gyfun Gymraeg Glantaf.

“He was going to the gym in the morning before school,” says Gareth.

“He benefited a lot from the Super 9s which came in while he was in the sixth form. Suddenly you saw a change from schoolboys rugby, with people passing the ball and having a go, to proper structured, organised rugby.”

Securing a place in the Cardiff Academy, he made his regional debut as an 18-year-old in November 2017, while he also played BUCS rugby when studying at Cardiff Met and represented Wales U20s.

So how did Gareth feel watching his son’s steady rise?

“Obviously there is pride,” he says.

“But it did feel like he was made of glass for a long time. He had some nasty injuries.

“Every time he made a tackle, you were like ‘Oh God, is he going to get up?’.”

When he did manage to stay injury-free, Max’s talent was obvious and it saw him selected to make his senior Wales debut in the 20-9 victory over England at the Principality Stadium in August 2023.

“I think we all had to hold it together a bit in the anthem,” admits Gareth.

“The old onion chopper was in town! The anthem is always emotional at the best of times, so we were all like ‘Oh, it’s finished, we just got through that’.”

“I thought Max played quite well alongside George North in the centre. He actually gave George a rollicking at one point for moving off his man early!”

Llewellyn Jnr was among the replacements against South Africa a couple of weeks later, but then missed out on selection for the World Cup in France. So, come that autumn, his focus was firmly on his new adventure with Gloucester, following his decision to move across the bridge after six years with Cardiff.

“I think going to Gloucester has been a Godsend for him,” says Gareth.

“I can see the argument for keeping players in Wales because the WRU have got to sell the Welsh package and that’s all the best players playing in the regions, whereas if they are playing across the bridge then your product is diminished and what are you selling? A second team competition almost.

“So I get that. I also get the issue of access to players for international duty. The English-based players can’t go into camp for certain days. So I can see the benefit to Wales. But it also benefits the players being over in England.

“The Premiership is a great competition. It’s on fire at the moment. Every weekend, every match is amazing. Every game just feels like an occasion.

“The level is that much higher and you’ve got to lift your game in training and in the matches to make sure you keep your spot.”

Max established himself as a first team regular at Gloucester during the second half of last season, primarily at 12, but then suffered hernia damage, which required surgery at the end of the campaign, ruling him out of contention for Wales’ summer tour of Australia.

Now back to full fitness, he’s begun this season with a bang, starting every Premiership match and showing his versatility by wearing 12, 13 and 11, scoring five tries, including a hat-trick from outside centre against Leicester.

His form has seen him earn a deserved recall to the Wales squad for the autumn Tests against Fiji, Australia and South Africa.

Giving his thoughts on his son’s prime position, Gareth says: “I think his assets are best suited to 12. He’s an intelligent player, he’s a good defender and he gives you gainline.

“You can have all the ball players you want, but if you haven't got gainline, if you haven’t got go-forward, you are knackered. That’s why Jamie Roberts was gold for Wales.”

He continued: “I try not to talk to Max too much about rugby, but quite often now he will ring me up and chat about stuff and ask me what I think.

“It’s quite interesting actually because I am learning stuff from him because the game has changed so much since I was involved in it.

“Certainly the way Gloucester are playing now, it’s very interesting because they are really pushing on with the expansive game.”

Gareth feels that attacking approach has to be the way forward for the sport.

“I enjoy a good game. What I get frustrated with is the lack of ambition from some teams,” he says.

“The game is driven by stats and a lot of people coach by stats.

“But, if you are going to coach, surely your ambition should be to play the most attractive rugby you can?

“What Gloucester have learned is the teams that hold on to the ball longest in the Premiership are winning, so they are not kicking so much and are looking to play, which is great to see.

“We are in the business of entertainment. You’ve got to sell the sport and make it more of a spectacle. We are competing with all the other sports for TV rights.”

Llewellyn is the first to admit the modern game is far removed from the one he started out in back in the late 1980s.

He was to have a 20-year playing career which took in two spells at Neath, plus stints with Harlequins, Ospreys, Narbonne and Bristol, with his first Wales cap coming in 1989 and his last in 2004.

“I think the game changed more during my career than it did in the 50 years before that,” he says.

“It went professional, you had the growth of the World Cup, the start of regional rugby, law changes.

“I know people look back with rose tinted glasses, but if you look at international matches in the early 1990s, they were crap. The standard was awful.

“The game has moved on so much since then.

“The ball-in-play time is still pretty much the same, about 34-35 minutes.

“But the big difference is the physical intensity and the collisions. The players are fitter and stronger than they have ever been. There are some brilliant athletes.”

Gareth played alongside some real household names during his career, so it’s fascinating to hear him talk about the person who perhaps made the biggest impression on him - former Neath prop Brian Williams.

“I didn’t know people like Brian existed. He was such a freak of a player. I didn’t realise there were humans like this,” he says.

“It was just his capacity for work and his capacity to endure pain. He was so fit and so tough.

“You wouldn’t want to get into a scrap with him. I saw him knock a lot of people out. He wasn’t a dirty player, but inevitably people tried to hold him back when the ball had gone from the scrum or a maul.

“He was a fair man Brian. He always warned them first! But God, he was a tough guy.

“The amazing thing was you had people like Brian and then the total flip side was Paul Thorburn. He didn’t fit in Neath at all - this bright, intelligent guy who spoke very well - but he fitted perfectly. He was such a great bloke, a great player.

“As a young kid, it was fantastic for me to enter that environment at the Gnoll.

“Then, three years into it, Brian Thomas (team manager) asked me if I fancied being skipper. I was 22, 23 and all of these amazing guys were still playing for the club.”

Gareth was to share in two Welsh Cup triumphs and four league titles during his first spell with Neath and the memories remain vivid.

“Back in the day, some of the big Welsh cup finals would sell out the national stadium.

“I remember standing with my brother (Glyn) on the roundabout at junction 34 of the M4 and you were just seeing bus after bus after bus of supporters going by.

“There were buses from every rugby club and every pub in the Neath valley. I remember there were something like 40 of them one year.

“When rugby went professional, I went to Harlequins and then I came back after four years away.

“Fairly early on, I ran out at home to Swansea and it was like “Where has the crowd gone?’

“People say the crowds diminished when the game went regional, but they had gone way before that.”

As for his favourite games for Wales, two spring to mind.

“One is the 10-9 win against England in 1993 which was a real backs to the wall effort,” he says.

“It was such a big occasion, Wales v England and everything that comes with that.

“In fairness, the likes of Will Carling and Brian Moore were very gracious afterwards, coming into our dressing room.

“As much as the Welsh public loved to hate them, they were good people.

“When I was at ‘Quins, people would always ask me what Will was like and I would say he is a great bloke, a real good rugby man.

“His dad and my dad actually served together in the army, in the Royal Regiment of Wales.

“The other game that stands out was losing by a point to the All Blacks in 2004.

“I remember speaking to Steve Hansen afterwards and he said ‘We know we have been in a Test match, don’t worry about that. You pushed us all the way.”

A year or so earlier, Llewellyn had played under Hansen when the Kiwi was in charge of Wales and he has no hesitation in picking him out as the best coach he worked with.

“The chemistry of that coaching team, with Steve, Scott Johnson and Andrew Hore was very good,” he says.

“Hore was unique. He revolutionised strength and conditioning. I remember thinking to myself ‘Where was this guy when I was 21?’ I was 32, 33 at that point.

“With Steve and Johnno, it was the vision for the game. It was ‘This is how we are going to play’.

“There was a lot of resistance, but I remember saying ‘Guys, we are pretty rubbish really. This bloke has just won four Super 12 titles and we are telling him, no, we don’t want to play like that.’

“Steve has said in interviews that the hardest part of coaching is convincing the players to come with you. Once you have done that, you are up and running.

“On the training pitch, he was deadly serious, in terms of the standards he demanded.

“But, as soon as that finished, he was the funniest guy ever. People used to call him a dour Kiwi, but his sense of humour was brilliant.

“I thought his man management was fantastic. He encouraged us to speak up for ourselves and make our own pathway. With his vision for the game, the way we trained, I was just so gutted I didn’t get that earlier on in my career.

“We won the 2005 Grand Slam off the foundations Steve had laid.”

In terms of the best players he lined up alongside for Wales, he picks out a few.

“Scott Gibbs was phenomenal, while Gareth Thomas was a great rugby player in a lot of positions and an amazing captain. I don’t think a lot of people give him credit for just how good a captain he was. He did a tremendous job.

“Colin Charvis was a great guy to have alongside you on the field, then you had Neil Jenkins and Rob Howley. People talk about Gareth Edwards being the greatest, but I don’t think Howley was too far behind him as a player. He was a proper greyhound.”

As for the biggest characters, he says: “Garin Jenkins was quite amusing, while Kingsley Jones was hilarious.

“When your father is a stand-up comedian, you can’t not be funny. I remember going on tour to Australia with Kingsley and he didn’t stop telling jokes for three weeks!”

Llewellyn captained Wales seven times, including the famous victory over France during the 1994 Five Nations title-triumph, while he played in three World Cups.

After hanging up his boots, he had a couple of years back at Neath as head coach, up until 2018, and since then has worked in the sales of sports medical devices, a role he now undertakes for American company Conmed.

Living in Cardiff, he has three children, with Max having a sister Harrie and a brother Alfie, who plays in the back row for Bridgend RFC.

Now 55, Gareth clearly keeps himself in good shape, looking as lean as he did during his playing days.

So, finally, how does he now look back on that rugby life?

“I realise I am so lucky,” he replies.

“I came out of youth rugby at Llanharan and went straight into the first team at Neath and then a year later I was playing international rugby at 20.

“I did that until I was 35 and I played professional rugby at the top level until I was 39.

“I do realise I was lucky to play to that age because you see guys now finishing at 29, 30.

“I wasn’t the most natural athlete in the world. I had to work hard at it, but I enjoyed that. I basically milked everything I could out of it and I realise I got more out of it than most and I am very grateful for that.

“You have highs and lows along the way, but even the bad times were more fun than working for a living. I had the best time ever.

“It’s a great way to earn a living. You are with your mates every day and you are doing the thing you enjoy the most. It’s a great lifestyle.

“How can you not enjoy doing that? I loved it.”